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	<title>Comments on: Deathly Hallows Discussion Point #11: Unrequited Love</title>
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	<description>Thoughts for the Serious Reader of Harry Potter</description>
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		<title>By: maggiemay</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-2/#comment-1094</link>
		<dc:creator>maggiemay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2007 00:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1094</guid>
		<description>Is anyone disappointed that Snape&#039;s portrait was not in the headmaster&#039;s office at the end?  This is how I wish the ending would have read:
     But Harry had eyes only for the man who stood in the newest portrait directly behind the headmaster&#039;s chair.  Tears were sliding down the hooked nose onto the crisp black robes and the piercing gaze from the black eyes caused Harry to bow his head.  He realized he was holding the elder wand against his heart.  In the deep silence that now settled on the room, Harry wondered what was to be done.  How to possibly atone for the misplaced trust, pride, and legacy of James&#039; behaviour?  The sudden thought of Regulus Black made Harry gasp with pain.  How many others might there be, who had fought bravely and secretly?  As Harry struggled to put words together, he heard Hermione sniffling from where she and Ron stood close behind him.  With gratitude he knew he was not alone in this misery.

     &quot;Students of Gryffindor&quot; then spoke the voice in such a manner that Harry felt an immediate release from his confusion.  The thundering applause resumed.  Harry slowly raised his eyes to meet that familiar stare.  But the dark eyes were now alight with something that Harry did not recognize.  Only later would he understand that it was simply the absence of turmoil, bitterness, and deception.  Professor Snape was at peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is anyone disappointed that Snape&#8217;s portrait was not in the headmaster&#8217;s office at the end?  This is how I wish the ending would have read:<br />
     But Harry had eyes only for the man who stood in the newest portrait directly behind the headmaster&#8217;s chair.  Tears were sliding down the hooked nose onto the crisp black robes and the piercing gaze from the black eyes caused Harry to bow his head.  He realized he was holding the elder wand against his heart.  In the deep silence that now settled on the room, Harry wondered what was to be done.  How to possibly atone for the misplaced trust, pride, and legacy of James&#8217; behaviour?  The sudden thought of Regulus Black made Harry gasp with pain.  How many others might there be, who had fought bravely and secretly?  As Harry struggled to put words together, he heard Hermione sniffling from where she and Ron stood close behind him.  With gratitude he knew he was not alone in this misery.</p>
<p>     &#8220;Students of Gryffindor&#8221; then spoke the voice in such a manner that Harry felt an immediate release from his confusion.  The thundering applause resumed.  Harry slowly raised his eyes to meet that familiar stare.  But the dark eyes were now alight with something that Harry did not recognize.  Only later would he understand that it was simply the absence of turmoil, bitterness, and deception.  Professor Snape was at peace.</p>
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		<title>By: rosesandthorns</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-2/#comment-1093</link>
		<dc:creator>rosesandthorns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 17:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1093</guid>
		<description>Insightful post hambrick91! You’ve expressed the thoughts that others would no doubt also be thinking, but not be able to articulate on their own. Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Eloquent reasoning, and I very much agree!

I do find it telling that Harry, who names his second son Albus Severus, also named his first son James. I think he realized that his father, while a bully and arrogant as a teenager of fifteen, did grow out of it enough to make Lily fall in love with him (and just like Lily who died in Harry’s place, James died to try to protect those he loved, which is certainly great proof of what kind of man he became). James, like so many of us, I daresay, did grow out of his mistakes. (My opinion is that by the time Lily and James got together, James was no longer hexing Snape for fun, but only if Snape attacked him, much as Harry did not hex Draco for fun, but only if Draco attacked him.) All three men did disappoint Harry in ways: James by being a bully at one point in his life; Severus by being downright cruel to him; Albus with his “secrets” and not-so-white past … but in the end, all three of them showed their true worth. And, I think, naming his children after the three men showed the final maturity of Harry. (Of course, he did name a daughter after the wonderful Lily as well, but I think the naming conventions for his sons were the most telling, as were those final words to Albus Severus about his name and about choice *sniff*).

Lily was definitely the light that Severus, in his darkness, did not truly see until it was too late and her life was threatened. He sees enough to be attracted to it, but not enough to turn away from the darkness, which had it’s own appeal for the vulnerable Snape. Some moments in the memories that Snape shares with Harry about Lily are particularly telling. Remember when Lily confronts Snape about Mulciber, asking him how he can be friends with such a “creepy” guy who tried to do Dark Magic to Mary Macdonald, and Sev just shrugs it off as a “laugh, that’s all”? I bet if Mulciber had tried to do the same thing to Lily, Snape would definitely not have thought it was just a “laugh.” I’m guessing he would have cursed Mulciber in a … er … “not-so-nice” way, and maybe then Snape would have truly realized the dark path he had set himself upon and just what kind of persons Mulciber and Avery were. Another moment was when the final break came after Snape called her a “mudblood.” She rightly points out that he calls everyone of her birth that name, so why should she be any different? It seems obvious that he regularly insults muggle-borns with that name, and she calls him out it.

Ironically, it takes the darkness of Voldemort for Snape to finally see the light. All those years of being a Death Eater … Snape would know by then what kind of wizard Voldemort was. I am sure Voldemort was just as “loyal” to his followers back then as he was after he returned to his body – Voldemort regularly tortured and killed his own followers in book seven if they displeased him or brought him bad news. (“No honor among thieves,” indeed!) And Snape would not be the first Death Eater to have doubts either, as was evidenced by Regulus after Voldemort very callously tried to kill Kreacher. I also think Snape joined the Death Eaters more for the power than anything else. Possibly like Draco, who talked the Death Eater talk but does not really want to kill anyone, Snape (like Regulus) might not have truly understood what he was getting himself into until it was too late and all that he held dear (or is it deer? – I had to get a doe joke in) was in danger. That was no doubt as to why he went to Dumbledore even though Voldemort had promised to spare Lily: Snape knew very well that Lily did not matter to Voldemort and that Snape’s wishes did not truly matter to Voldemort either in the end. Snape knew Lily was in great danger. And he knew that Dumbledore was the opposite kind of wizard to Voldemort, and so Snape went to him and ended up working undercover for Dumbledore.

I think the appeal of Snape as a character is that he could have lived a very different life if he had simply chosen better – and seen the light and the darkness for what they were earlier in his life. (He is kinda the opposite of Harry in many ways, for Harry generally chooses the right path to go on, whereas Severus chose most of the wrong paths before Lily’s death.) Even as early as the sorting … remember how Lily was sorted into Gryffindor before Snape was sorted? Suppose, like Harry, Snape (with his wish to join his friend becoming greater than his wish for the powerful lure of the Slytherins) had asked the hat to put him in Gryffindor? I have no doubt that it would have granted his wish, and even Dumbledore, with his remark on how they “sort too soon,” clearly implied that Snape had the requisite bravery of a Gryffindor. That one choice could have changed Snape’s life forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insightful post hambrick91! You’ve expressed the thoughts that others would no doubt also be thinking, but not be able to articulate on their own. Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Eloquent reasoning, and I very much agree!</p>
<p>I do find it telling that Harry, who names his second son Albus Severus, also named his first son James. I think he realized that his father, while a bully and arrogant as a teenager of fifteen, did grow out of it enough to make Lily fall in love with him (and just like Lily who died in Harry’s place, James died to try to protect those he loved, which is certainly great proof of what kind of man he became). James, like so many of us, I daresay, did grow out of his mistakes. (My opinion is that by the time Lily and James got together, James was no longer hexing Snape for fun, but only if Snape attacked him, much as Harry did not hex Draco for fun, but only if Draco attacked him.) All three men did disappoint Harry in ways: James by being a bully at one point in his life; Severus by being downright cruel to him; Albus with his “secrets” and not-so-white past … but in the end, all three of them showed their true worth. And, I think, naming his children after the three men showed the final maturity of Harry. (Of course, he did name a daughter after the wonderful Lily as well, but I think the naming conventions for his sons were the most telling, as were those final words to Albus Severus about his name and about choice *sniff*).</p>
<p>Lily was definitely the light that Severus, in his darkness, did not truly see until it was too late and her life was threatened. He sees enough to be attracted to it, but not enough to turn away from the darkness, which had it’s own appeal for the vulnerable Snape. Some moments in the memories that Snape shares with Harry about Lily are particularly telling. Remember when Lily confronts Snape about Mulciber, asking him how he can be friends with such a “creepy” guy who tried to do Dark Magic to Mary Macdonald, and Sev just shrugs it off as a “laugh, that’s all”? I bet if Mulciber had tried to do the same thing to Lily, Snape would definitely not have thought it was just a “laugh.” I’m guessing he would have cursed Mulciber in a … er … “not-so-nice” way, and maybe then Snape would have truly realized the dark path he had set himself upon and just what kind of persons Mulciber and Avery were. Another moment was when the final break came after Snape called her a “mudblood.” She rightly points out that he calls everyone of her birth that name, so why should she be any different? It seems obvious that he regularly insults muggle-borns with that name, and she calls him out it.</p>
<p>Ironically, it takes the darkness of Voldemort for Snape to finally see the light. All those years of being a Death Eater … Snape would know by then what kind of wizard Voldemort was. I am sure Voldemort was just as “loyal” to his followers back then as he was after he returned to his body – Voldemort regularly tortured and killed his own followers in book seven if they displeased him or brought him bad news. (“No honor among thieves,” indeed!) And Snape would not be the first Death Eater to have doubts either, as was evidenced by Regulus after Voldemort very callously tried to kill Kreacher. I also think Snape joined the Death Eaters more for the power than anything else. Possibly like Draco, who talked the Death Eater talk but does not really want to kill anyone, Snape (like Regulus) might not have truly understood what he was getting himself into until it was too late and all that he held dear (or is it deer? – I had to get a doe joke in) was in danger. That was no doubt as to why he went to Dumbledore even though Voldemort had promised to spare Lily: Snape knew very well that Lily did not matter to Voldemort and that Snape’s wishes did not truly matter to Voldemort either in the end. Snape knew Lily was in great danger. And he knew that Dumbledore was the opposite kind of wizard to Voldemort, and so Snape went to him and ended up working undercover for Dumbledore.</p>
<p>I think the appeal of Snape as a character is that he could have lived a very different life if he had simply chosen better – and seen the light and the darkness for what they were earlier in his life. (He is kinda the opposite of Harry in many ways, for Harry generally chooses the right path to go on, whereas Severus chose most of the wrong paths before Lily’s death.) Even as early as the sorting … remember how Lily was sorted into Gryffindor before Snape was sorted? Suppose, like Harry, Snape (with his wish to join his friend becoming greater than his wish for the powerful lure of the Slytherins) had asked the hat to put him in Gryffindor? I have no doubt that it would have granted his wish, and even Dumbledore, with his remark on how they “sort too soon,” clearly implied that Snape had the requisite bravery of a Gryffindor. That one choice could have changed Snape’s life forever.</p>
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		<title>By: Coppinger Bailey</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-2/#comment-1092</link>
		<dc:creator>Coppinger Bailey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 04:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1092</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to give a belated tip of the hat to everyone who stuck by their convictions that Snape was helping protect Harry for Lily&#039;s sake.  That honestly was my gut response when I first read the pensieve scene in Order, but Snape&#039;s use of the AK curse on Dumbledore in HBP made me seriously question that view.  So after pouring back through the books, I decided that Snape was on nobody&#039;s side but his own &amp; that he would attempt to finish Harry off himself.  Wrong!  Sucker!

I still think Snape -- although incredibly brave to take on this protector role -- was only out for his own interests, which turned out to be his love for Lily.  Dumbledore realized this.  I think Dumbledore, having given Snape a chance, recognized over time that Snape had wounds that ran really deep &amp; when Harry finally comes to Hogwarts, Dumbledore sees that Snape&#039;s grudges are still a huge weakness that Snape has yet to overcome.

My essay on Snape referenced other fans who had pointed out the link of the name &quot;Severus&quot; to Machiavelli’s Prince.  Just before DH came out, another HogPro blogger wrote in that the name could have originated from a character named &quot;Severus&quot; in French literature:

&quot;There’s a seventeenth century play by Corneille called “Polyeucte” (in English, Polyeuctus.) The play is about a Christian martyr, Polyeuctus, who died during the reign of the Roman Emperor Decius. There is an important character in the play named Severus (Severe, in French.) Severus, a Roman soldier, pagan, and favorite of the Emperor, is hopelessly in love with a married woman, Pauline, the wife of Polyeuctus. Severus is offered the opportunity to marry Pauline upon the death of Polyeuctus. In an act of unselfish heroism, Severus instead tries (unsuccessfully) to save Polyeuctus for the sake of Pauline. If memory serves me correctly, I think Pauline winds up being martyred also, and Severus comes over to the good side, accepting the truth of Christianity and vowing to defend Christians from the Emperor. &quot;

After reading Deathly Hallows, I think both the Machiavelli and the Polyeucte references work.  Snape was capable of one singular love, and he chose to act on that love.  But I think my Machiavelli-based look at Snape’s character still applies, I just got his motivation wrong.  And I was guilty of suggesting that a “Machiavelli-Snape” would be reduced to an overly-simplistic “Evil Snape.”  Wrong!  - and boring.  Ms. Rowling, in my mind, stayed true to Snape’s shades of grey through to the very end, and his character is the richer for it.

A friend of mine pointed out the other day that Snape had the single most dangerous job of any member of the Order; he was in constant danger – especially after Voldemort returns to a body.  I cried when I was reading the Epilogue &amp; Harry called his son “Albus Severus.”  I thought that one line summed up everything Ms. Rowling needed to say about the end of Snape’s story.  Harry realized that he was wrong about Snape, that Snape was one of the bravest men Harry ever knew, &amp; Harry and Ginny recognized and honored the sacrifice Snape made on behalf of Lily.  We don’t know if Snape wound up at King’s Cross after Nagini killed him, but he was redeemed in the eyes of those he helped to save and left behind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to give a belated tip of the hat to everyone who stuck by their convictions that Snape was helping protect Harry for Lily&#8217;s sake.  That honestly was my gut response when I first read the pensieve scene in Order, but Snape&#8217;s use of the AK curse on Dumbledore in HBP made me seriously question that view.  So after pouring back through the books, I decided that Snape was on nobody&#8217;s side but his own &amp; that he would attempt to finish Harry off himself.  Wrong!  Sucker!</p>
<p>I still think Snape &#8212; although incredibly brave to take on this protector role &#8212; was only out for his own interests, which turned out to be his love for Lily.  Dumbledore realized this.  I think Dumbledore, having given Snape a chance, recognized over time that Snape had wounds that ran really deep &amp; when Harry finally comes to Hogwarts, Dumbledore sees that Snape&#8217;s grudges are still a huge weakness that Snape has yet to overcome.</p>
<p>My essay on Snape referenced other fans who had pointed out the link of the name &#8220;Severus&#8221; to Machiavelli’s Prince.  Just before DH came out, another HogPro blogger wrote in that the name could have originated from a character named &#8220;Severus&#8221; in French literature:</p>
<p>&#8220;There’s a seventeenth century play by Corneille called “Polyeucte” (in English, Polyeuctus.) The play is about a Christian martyr, Polyeuctus, who died during the reign of the Roman Emperor Decius. There is an important character in the play named Severus (Severe, in French.) Severus, a Roman soldier, pagan, and favorite of the Emperor, is hopelessly in love with a married woman, Pauline, the wife of Polyeuctus. Severus is offered the opportunity to marry Pauline upon the death of Polyeuctus. In an act of unselfish heroism, Severus instead tries (unsuccessfully) to save Polyeuctus for the sake of Pauline. If memory serves me correctly, I think Pauline winds up being martyred also, and Severus comes over to the good side, accepting the truth of Christianity and vowing to defend Christians from the Emperor. &#8221;</p>
<p>After reading Deathly Hallows, I think both the Machiavelli and the Polyeucte references work.  Snape was capable of one singular love, and he chose to act on that love.  But I think my Machiavelli-based look at Snape’s character still applies, I just got his motivation wrong.  And I was guilty of suggesting that a “Machiavelli-Snape” would be reduced to an overly-simplistic “Evil Snape.”  Wrong!  &#8211; and boring.  Ms. Rowling, in my mind, stayed true to Snape’s shades of grey through to the very end, and his character is the richer for it.</p>
<p>A friend of mine pointed out the other day that Snape had the single most dangerous job of any member of the Order; he was in constant danger – especially after Voldemort returns to a body.  I cried when I was reading the Epilogue &amp; Harry called his son “Albus Severus.”  I thought that one line summed up everything Ms. Rowling needed to say about the end of Snape’s story.  Harry realized that he was wrong about Snape, that Snape was one of the bravest men Harry ever knew, &amp; Harry and Ginny recognized and honored the sacrifice Snape made on behalf of Lily.  We don’t know if Snape wound up at King’s Cross after Nagini killed him, but he was redeemed in the eyes of those he helped to save and left behind.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-2/#comment-1091</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1091</guid>
		<description>Post of the week! Thank you, Hambrick91.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Post of the week! Thank you, Hambrick91.</p>
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		<title>By: hambrick91</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-1/#comment-1090</link>
		<dc:creator>hambrick91</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1090</guid>
		<description>On the question of how Lily could consider James after the way he treated Snape, I have a personal insight.

During college, I was once engaged to my husband&#039;s roommate.  At the time, Troy (my fiance) and Glen (my husband) were at odds with one another.  Naturally, I took Troy&#039;s side in every argument and refused to see that perhaps Glen had an inkling into his roommate&#039;s character.  When Troy unceramoniously dumped me and tried to move across country without telling me, I realized maybe Glen had a point about Troy.  But Glen was still obnoxious in many ways, and I wasn&#039;t especially fond of him until nearly 2 years later.  Then suddenly, everything was different.  Glen matured a lot in those 2 years and had many character qualities that had always lurked beneath the surface magnified and become more dominant.  Suddenly he was a person I could love.  We&#039;ve been married nearly 16 years now.

We aren&#039;t told exactly how James changed and matured in the intervening years.  But we know he must have.  Honestly, would YOU want to be judged forever on some foolish acts when you were 15?  Boys that age, being normal boys, tend to do idiotic things--often in a misguided attempt to attract the attention of a girl.  Witness the case in the US where 2 7th grade boys were put in JAIL for 5 days for smacking the backsides of girls as they went down the halls at school.

I&#039;m NOT saying James was right, or even justified in his treatment of Snape.  He was unquestionably wrong to treat Snape that way--not just wrong but cruel.  But the whole point of the series is that our choices define us.  We know Lily didn&#039;t think much of James&#039; treatment of Snape.  But that was in about their 5th year.  James and Lily became a couple at some point after that.  From what we know of Lily, James must have changed in the better in some regards for her to consider him a boyfriend, let alone marry him and have a child with him.

We know the choices Snape went on to make and what he chose to make of his life.  Remember, the reason Lily broke off their friendship was that what Snape&#039;s friends were doing was far worse than anything James &amp; Co. ever did.  She saw her friend going down the same path and knew she could not be part of it.  &quot;What fellowship has light with darkness?&quot;  After years of trying to be a light to him, it was obvious Snape didn&#039;t want the light she was offering.  He wanted HER, but not necessarily her values.

Eventually Snape made the hard choice to do the right, brave thing, but not until he lost everything he valued most in the world.  I have enormous respect for Snape, because it was an amazingly difficult thing to do.  And I always thought that what happened on the Tower had been pre-arranged as part of maintaining Snape&#039;s cover/saving Draco/saving Snape from breaking an Unbreakable Vow.  I always thought we would find him to be much deeper and more loyal to Dumbledore and the side of Right than most would have given him credit for, and I&#039;m glad I was proved right on that issue.  I&#039;m glad he proved to be a character I could respect.

But to my original point, I think James must have changed/matured/grown up--and done so in a big way.  The fact that we&#039;re not told the details doesn&#039;t mean they weren&#039;t there.  We know Lily, and because of who she ultimately chose to marry, we must know a bit about who James CHOSE to become.

Just my personal take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the question of how Lily could consider James after the way he treated Snape, I have a personal insight.</p>
<p>During college, I was once engaged to my husband&#8217;s roommate.  At the time, Troy (my fiance) and Glen (my husband) were at odds with one another.  Naturally, I took Troy&#8217;s side in every argument and refused to see that perhaps Glen had an inkling into his roommate&#8217;s character.  When Troy unceramoniously dumped me and tried to move across country without telling me, I realized maybe Glen had a point about Troy.  But Glen was still obnoxious in many ways, and I wasn&#8217;t especially fond of him until nearly 2 years later.  Then suddenly, everything was different.  Glen matured a lot in those 2 years and had many character qualities that had always lurked beneath the surface magnified and become more dominant.  Suddenly he was a person I could love.  We&#8217;ve been married nearly 16 years now.</p>
<p>We aren&#8217;t told exactly how James changed and matured in the intervening years.  But we know he must have.  Honestly, would YOU want to be judged forever on some foolish acts when you were 15?  Boys that age, being normal boys, tend to do idiotic things&#8211;often in a misguided attempt to attract the attention of a girl.  Witness the case in the US where 2 7th grade boys were put in JAIL for 5 days for smacking the backsides of girls as they went down the halls at school.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m NOT saying James was right, or even justified in his treatment of Snape.  He was unquestionably wrong to treat Snape that way&#8211;not just wrong but cruel.  But the whole point of the series is that our choices define us.  We know Lily didn&#8217;t think much of James&#8217; treatment of Snape.  But that was in about their 5th year.  James and Lily became a couple at some point after that.  From what we know of Lily, James must have changed in the better in some regards for her to consider him a boyfriend, let alone marry him and have a child with him.</p>
<p>We know the choices Snape went on to make and what he chose to make of his life.  Remember, the reason Lily broke off their friendship was that what Snape&#8217;s friends were doing was far worse than anything James &amp; Co. ever did.  She saw her friend going down the same path and knew she could not be part of it.  &#8220;What fellowship has light with darkness?&#8221;  After years of trying to be a light to him, it was obvious Snape didn&#8217;t want the light she was offering.  He wanted HER, but not necessarily her values.</p>
<p>Eventually Snape made the hard choice to do the right, brave thing, but not until he lost everything he valued most in the world.  I have enormous respect for Snape, because it was an amazingly difficult thing to do.  And I always thought that what happened on the Tower had been pre-arranged as part of maintaining Snape&#8217;s cover/saving Draco/saving Snape from breaking an Unbreakable Vow.  I always thought we would find him to be much deeper and more loyal to Dumbledore and the side of Right than most would have given him credit for, and I&#8217;m glad I was proved right on that issue.  I&#8217;m glad he proved to be a character I could respect.</p>
<p>But to my original point, I think James must have changed/matured/grown up&#8211;and done so in a big way.  The fact that we&#8217;re not told the details doesn&#8217;t mean they weren&#8217;t there.  We know Lily, and because of who she ultimately chose to marry, we must know a bit about who James CHOSE to become.</p>
<p>Just my personal take.</p>
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		<title>By: TrustSeverus</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-1/#comment-1089</link>
		<dc:creator>TrustSeverus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1089</guid>
		<description>I completely agree with TonksnLupin. James was nothing but a macho bully, tormenting people because he needs the entertainment. Ginny didn&#039;t do that.
 If you remember, when asked why he bullied Severus, he replied, &quot;It&#039;s more of the fact that he exists.&quot;
 Now if that&#039;s not the most disgusting, repulsive thing to say, then I don&#039;t know what is.

Severus was indeed the bravest of all the characters-- and devoting his entire life to his unrequited love who has died cannot be called selfish by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, the fact that he wanted only Lily to be saved that night was not particularly admirable, but it IS understandable when you&#039;ve gone through such pain, sorrow, and suffering as he has. It&#039;s only human to feel that way.

I&#039;ve been a fan of Severus ever since I read the first book- and my love for the character increased by each book I read. Mostly due to the fact that I saw myself in him immensely-- especially in Order of the Phoenix and Deathly Hallows.
 So I&#039;ve had a kind of connection that way to the character. And after reading OotP, I just knew that there was something more between Severus and Lily.
 I think Lily was the perfect &quot;light&quot; to his &quot;darkness&quot;. She saw in him what he could not. He NEEDED her.

I was disappointed that we weren&#039;t informed about why Lily would even consider James after torturing her best friend daily.

And as for the &quot;Just get over it&quot; thing-- Let&#039;s see you put yourself in Snape&#039;s place during &quot;Snape&#039;s Worst Memory&quot; and see how easy it is for you to get over being savagely humiliated in front of an entire school plus the one you secretly love. It isn&#039;t easy.
 And of course James could get over it, he didn&#039;t have anything to forgive!

I just thank God Harry was more like Lily. Even if he didn&#039;t have her ability of seeing the best in people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree with TonksnLupin. James was nothing but a macho bully, tormenting people because he needs the entertainment. Ginny didn&#8217;t do that.<br />
 If you remember, when asked why he bullied Severus, he replied, &#8220;It&#8217;s more of the fact that he exists.&#8221;<br />
 Now if that&#8217;s not the most disgusting, repulsive thing to say, then I don&#8217;t know what is.</p>
<p>Severus was indeed the bravest of all the characters&#8211; and devoting his entire life to his unrequited love who has died cannot be called selfish by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, the fact that he wanted only Lily to be saved that night was not particularly admirable, but it IS understandable when you&#8217;ve gone through such pain, sorrow, and suffering as he has. It&#8217;s only human to feel that way.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been a fan of Severus ever since I read the first book- and my love for the character increased by each book I read. Mostly due to the fact that I saw myself in him immensely&#8211; especially in Order of the Phoenix and Deathly Hallows.<br />
 So I&#8217;ve had a kind of connection that way to the character. And after reading OotP, I just knew that there was something more between Severus and Lily.<br />
 I think Lily was the perfect &#8220;light&#8221; to his &#8220;darkness&#8221;. She saw in him what he could not. He NEEDED her.</p>
<p>I was disappointed that we weren&#8217;t informed about why Lily would even consider James after torturing her best friend daily.</p>
<p>And as for the &#8220;Just get over it&#8221; thing&#8211; Let&#8217;s see you put yourself in Snape&#8217;s place during &#8220;Snape&#8217;s Worst Memory&#8221; and see how easy it is for you to get over being savagely humiliated in front of an entire school plus the one you secretly love. It isn&#8217;t easy.<br />
 And of course James could get over it, he didn&#8217;t have anything to forgive!</p>
<p>I just thank God Harry was more like Lily. Even if he didn&#8217;t have her ability of seeing the best in people.</p>
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		<title>By: savingpeoplething</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-1/#comment-1088</link>
		<dc:creator>savingpeoplething</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 03:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1088</guid>
		<description>I liked that JKR left the Snape question unanswered until the very end because it was one of the mysteries in the series that I was waiting on and she knew how to keep me reading by dangling that in front of me, prolonging it as long as she could :)

I thought it was interesting that Snape&#039;s last words are &quot;Look...at...me&quot; to Harry, who has his mother&#039;s eyes and are probably what Snape wanted to see.

I pretty much figured since OOTP that Snape had a thing for Lily since she was the only one who would stand up for him and he always seemed to protect Harry or give him advice when he didn&#039;t need to, so I saw all of that coming.  But, I think the timing was well-done because even though I felt STRONGLY that Snape was a good guy, she had me going up until the memory flashbacks that he really WAS working for Voldemort as a genuine Death Eater.

Lily called Snape out on his beliefs and knew that he was better than that.  Glad to see that, in the end, she was right and he knew it.

- Rebecca</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked that JKR left the Snape question unanswered until the very end because it was one of the mysteries in the series that I was waiting on and she knew how to keep me reading by dangling that in front of me, prolonging it as long as she could <img src='http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I thought it was interesting that Snape&#8217;s last words are &#8220;Look&#8230;at&#8230;me&#8221; to Harry, who has his mother&#8217;s eyes and are probably what Snape wanted to see.</p>
<p>I pretty much figured since OOTP that Snape had a thing for Lily since she was the only one who would stand up for him and he always seemed to protect Harry or give him advice when he didn&#8217;t need to, so I saw all of that coming.  But, I think the timing was well-done because even though I felt STRONGLY that Snape was a good guy, she had me going up until the memory flashbacks that he really WAS working for Voldemort as a genuine Death Eater.</p>
<p>Lily called Snape out on his beliefs and knew that he was better than that.  Glad to see that, in the end, she was right and he knew it.</p>
<p>- Rebecca</p>
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		<title>By: TonksnLupin</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-1/#comment-1087</link>
		<dc:creator>TonksnLupin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1087</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s is true that James did do some things honorable like befriending a werewolf but lupin was a trouble maker [or else really nice so as to not get james on his bad side] and him being a werewolf was probably not found out until later. True, hexing is normal at Hogwarts but him picking on someone with no real cause other than him possibly being nosy is just cruel. Again, i can relate to Snape alot and not to James. Also, he was popular, probably had run of the school and most people get bigheaded and mean after that (trust me, i have seen this happen in every single school i went to). Also, BIG point... Lily didn&#039;t like him for a long time. Lily, as we know her, was kind and generous to everybody and as Lupin said &quot;had the special talent of finding the good stuff in people when no one else could&quot; so why then, if James was &quot;alright&quot; as some people have said did she dislike him if she could befriend a werewolf? Also, james got the easy end... he got the girl, he wanted he had a son, he had a good job, he had good friends, and he didn&#039;t have a messed up family. Now what did snape have? nothing other than bitter resentment twords others which he aquired because he couldn&#039;t trust anyone. Again, I am like Snape and find it safer for myself to have next to no friends other than to be betrayed. I also have lost the love of my life to the Marines. He chose his future over me and i have become someone i hardly recognize.
Tonks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s is true that James did do some things honorable like befriending a werewolf but lupin was a trouble maker [or else really nice so as to not get james on his bad side] and him being a werewolf was probably not found out until later. True, hexing is normal at Hogwarts but him picking on someone with no real cause other than him possibly being nosy is just cruel. Again, i can relate to Snape alot and not to James. Also, he was popular, probably had run of the school and most people get bigheaded and mean after that (trust me, i have seen this happen in every single school i went to). Also, BIG point&#8230; Lily didn&#8217;t like him for a long time. Lily, as we know her, was kind and generous to everybody and as Lupin said &#8220;had the special talent of finding the good stuff in people when no one else could&#8221; so why then, if James was &#8220;alright&#8221; as some people have said did she dislike him if she could befriend a werewolf? Also, james got the easy end&#8230; he got the girl, he wanted he had a son, he had a good job, he had good friends, and he didn&#8217;t have a messed up family. Now what did snape have? nothing other than bitter resentment twords others which he aquired because he couldn&#8217;t trust anyone. Again, I am like Snape and find it safer for myself to have next to no friends other than to be betrayed. I also have lost the love of my life to the Marines. He chose his future over me and i have become someone i hardly recognize.<br />
Tonks</p>
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		<title>By: nelsonholly</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-1/#comment-1086</link>
		<dc:creator>nelsonholly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1086</guid>
		<description>Zoe Rose wrote:  &lt;i&gt;Severus Snape ... makes a choice - and that is one of the great themes of the book. What builds our character is our choices - and the choices of Severus Snape were ultimately centered on love. He chose wisely because he loved deeply, for better and for worse.&lt;/i&gt;

And the more I look at his conduct throughout the books the more I can admire the thoroughness he must have used in cementing this choice.

He appears to have NO close friends save Dumbledore, yet he could have had, I am sure.  I&#039;m inclined to think the nastiness, and even the greasy hair, were carefully maintained hedges to prevent such relationships.  Heavens, he&#039;s a wizard!  -- surely he could have clean hair if he&#039;d wanted it.  And to teach for a decade or two and not collect at least one insightful, admiring, dedicated ex-student or clear-eyed colleague is a task which requires steady work.

Also, many of the descriptive terms JKR used for him (silky speech, the capacity to nearly whisper and yet hold an audience, silence in his movements, delicate skill with potions) make it plain that task probably required constant hard work.

Noni</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zoe Rose wrote:  <i>Severus Snape &#8230; makes a choice &#8211; and that is one of the great themes of the book. What builds our character is our choices &#8211; and the choices of Severus Snape were ultimately centered on love. He chose wisely because he loved deeply, for better and for worse.</i></p>
<p>And the more I look at his conduct throughout the books the more I can admire the thoroughness he must have used in cementing this choice.</p>
<p>He appears to have NO close friends save Dumbledore, yet he could have had, I am sure.  I&#8217;m inclined to think the nastiness, and even the greasy hair, were carefully maintained hedges to prevent such relationships.  Heavens, he&#8217;s a wizard!  &#8212; surely he could have clean hair if he&#8217;d wanted it.  And to teach for a decade or two and not collect at least one insightful, admiring, dedicated ex-student or clear-eyed colleague is a task which requires steady work.</p>
<p>Also, many of the descriptive terms JKR used for him (silky speech, the capacity to nearly whisper and yet hold an audience, silence in his movements, delicate skill with potions) make it plain that task probably required constant hard work.</p>
<p>Noni</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-11-unrequited-love/comment-page-1/#comment-1085</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=126#comment-1085</guid>
		<description>ZoeRose Says:

July 26th, 2007 at 5:25 pm

...Having started my second read of Deathly Hallows, I am watching the unfolding tragic drama of Remus Lupin and Dora Tonks. In the start of the book, Tonks is the picture of joy and Remus is brooding, conflicted, unhappy. It is fascinating again to see the subtext, as we see Remus before Tonks returns from the flight from Privet Drive, anxious for Tonks - he nearly flies out of the house when she returns - only to see him even more conflicted after she returns. It is clear to him that Bellatrix, Tonk’s aunt, had tried to kill Tonks in the flight from Privet Drive - not because she’s trying to find the Real Harry - but because her niece is married to a werewolf. When the Minister of Magic arrives, it is Remus who suddenly announces that he and Tonks must leave quickly and he’ll explain later. My guess is that Tonks (who was looking radiant) had discovered she was pregnant and Lupin is not able to share her joy. If the Minster of Magic should discover her condition, he is not sure what will happen to Tonks since such children do not fare well in the Wizarding World, but especially as the events in Deathly Hallows unfold. It is tragic.

Tonks had spent almost all of Half Blood Prince in unrequited love, only to see a change at the end after Bill is bitten by Greyback and his fiance still love him. Tonks gets what she wants - Lupin - but he continues to be tortured by what it has cost her to marry him. Did he do the loving thing in requiting her love? Until Harry gives him a dressing down at Grimmauld Place, it is clear that Lupin regrets what he has done.

That Lupin’s fears for his son are not realized and he is only born with his mother’s hair, he is at last able to know joy. But it is short-lived and one of the haunting moments in the book is when Harry looks over and sees Lupin and Tonks - as though asleep - but asleep in death. They would not live to see their son grow up, as James and Lily were denied the same.
____________________

The way the Lupin-Tonks story played out reminds me of the earlier scene when Snape sees Tonks&#039; Patronus, which had apparently changed to be a wolf-shape, and says that it was weaker than her earlier one. He was right. He knew Lupin. Lupin was weak, in the way that only an intelligent, think-too-much, highly conscientious, self-doubting person can be. Until Harry gave him a timely tongue-lashing, Lupin was on the point of virtually abandoning his wife and child &quot;for their own good.&quot; I thought this portrayal of Remus was subtle and realistic. There really are people like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ZoeRose Says:</p>
<p>July 26th, 2007 at 5:25 pm</p>
<p>&#8230;Having started my second read of Deathly Hallows, I am watching the unfolding tragic drama of Remus Lupin and Dora Tonks. In the start of the book, Tonks is the picture of joy and Remus is brooding, conflicted, unhappy. It is fascinating again to see the subtext, as we see Remus before Tonks returns from the flight from Privet Drive, anxious for Tonks &#8211; he nearly flies out of the house when she returns &#8211; only to see him even more conflicted after she returns. It is clear to him that Bellatrix, Tonk’s aunt, had tried to kill Tonks in the flight from Privet Drive &#8211; not because she’s trying to find the Real Harry &#8211; but because her niece is married to a werewolf. When the Minister of Magic arrives, it is Remus who suddenly announces that he and Tonks must leave quickly and he’ll explain later. My guess is that Tonks (who was looking radiant) had discovered she was pregnant and Lupin is not able to share her joy. If the Minster of Magic should discover her condition, he is not sure what will happen to Tonks since such children do not fare well in the Wizarding World, but especially as the events in Deathly Hallows unfold. It is tragic.</p>
<p>Tonks had spent almost all of Half Blood Prince in unrequited love, only to see a change at the end after Bill is bitten by Greyback and his fiance still love him. Tonks gets what she wants &#8211; Lupin &#8211; but he continues to be tortured by what it has cost her to marry him. Did he do the loving thing in requiting her love? Until Harry gives him a dressing down at Grimmauld Place, it is clear that Lupin regrets what he has done.</p>
<p>That Lupin’s fears for his son are not realized and he is only born with his mother’s hair, he is at last able to know joy. But it is short-lived and one of the haunting moments in the book is when Harry looks over and sees Lupin and Tonks &#8211; as though asleep &#8211; but asleep in death. They would not live to see their son grow up, as James and Lily were denied the same.<br />
____________________</p>
<p>The way the Lupin-Tonks story played out reminds me of the earlier scene when Snape sees Tonks&#8217; Patronus, which had apparently changed to be a wolf-shape, and says that it was weaker than her earlier one. He was right. He knew Lupin. Lupin was weak, in the way that only an intelligent, think-too-much, highly conscientious, self-doubting person can be. Until Harry gave him a timely tongue-lashing, Lupin was on the point of virtually abandoning his wife and child &#8220;for their own good.&#8221; I thought this portrayal of Remus was subtle and realistic. There really are people like that.</p>
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