Comments on: Deathly Hallows Discussion Point #26: Struggling to Believe – The Dateline/TODAY Interviews http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/ Thoughts for the Serious Reader of Harry Potter Sun, 12 Feb 2012 04:27:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.3 By: Arabella Figg http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1626 Arabella Figg Tue, 07 Aug 2007 18:06:52 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1626 Phil Keaggy, wow! Serious project here. I'm going to think about it. Thank you for your kind words (lumping me with John, I'm overwhelmed!) Your four sisters' plight (and I do view it as a plight) is reflected in the Gospels. The ones who were spiritually hungry and drawn to Jesus were those outside the religiously correct circle of Pharisaic thought and discrimination. But all needed Jesus and he reached out to both. I pray you'll continue to have good, meaningful answers, and patient love for all your sisters. It could be your "witch" sisters, with their spiritual hunger, are closer to the kingdom of God in their seeking than your Christian sisters who live within it, yet don't reflect its principles. Would that they show the love of their master. Odon, I encourage you to keep on keeping on. There are other incredible Christian musicians who no longer find a home in the overruling contemporary Christian music industry which has become marketplace- rather than content-driven--singer/songwriter Bob Bennett, for example, one of the most poetic, reflective, gifted musicians of our time. Check out his home page. Another thing. We modern Christians have basically dumped our Christian heritage and history. It's as if Christianity only arose during the 20th century. We never study the eras before us. Yet there are rich historical traditions untapped, which would seem foreign and odd because we're unfamiliar with them. Would that we would see all Christians "in an unbroken line" each experiencing "Jesus in our time," as Bennett writes. Madame LaScrawny wants a scratch... Phil Keaggy, wow! Serious project here. I’m going to think about it. Thank you for your kind words (lumping me with John, I’m overwhelmed!)

Your four sisters’ plight (and I do view it as a plight) is reflected in the Gospels. The ones who were spiritually hungry and drawn to Jesus were those outside the religiously correct circle of Pharisaic thought and discrimination. But all needed Jesus and he reached out to both. I pray you’ll continue to have good, meaningful answers, and patient love for all your sisters. It could be your “witch” sisters, with their spiritual hunger, are closer to the kingdom of God in their seeking than your Christian sisters who live within it, yet don’t reflect its principles. Would that they show the love of their master.

Odon, I encourage you to keep on keeping on. There are other incredible Christian musicians who no longer find a home in the overruling contemporary Christian music industry which has become marketplace- rather than content-driven–singer/songwriter Bob Bennett, for example, one of the most poetic, reflective, gifted musicians of our time. Check out his home page.

Another thing. We modern Christians have basically dumped our Christian heritage and history. It’s as if Christianity only arose during the 20th century. We never study the eras before us. Yet there are rich historical traditions untapped, which would seem foreign and odd because we’re unfamiliar with them. Would that we would see all Christians “in an unbroken line” each experiencing “Jesus in our time,” as Bennett writes.

Madame LaScrawny wants a scratch…

]]> By: Odon http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1625 Odon Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:24:46 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1625 Arabella - on the note of reaching millions, including those who steer clear of Christian bookstores and Evangelical subculture, we can testify to that reality from first-hand experience. Not that our music reaches millions - I wish - but the only critique we experience comes from the church. Even songs in which the Christian message is hard to miss meet the approval of "non-Christian" audiences. I have two sisters who consider themselves Christians and two who call themselves witches. The greatest enthusiasm comes from the witches who feel like the poetry of our songs resonates with their soul and who seek us out again and again to discuss spirituality. By contrast, one of the Christian sisters refuses to speak to us because of doctrinal differences and our financial hardship. A wonderful resource for understanding faith struggles today is Alam Jamieson's "A Churchless Faith" - that book has helped me understand my only journey more than anything else. On a different note, we are working on a heptalogy called The Chrysalis Legend. It is barely in it's infancy stage and we recognize that our experience and education is so minimal that we are doomed to turn it into something pathetically cheesy, like so many other "Christian" attempts at art. We're hoping it will be a collaboration of artists and scholars. It is birthed out of our struggle to believe as well as our fascination with the epic and the glimpses we have caught of Tolkien's vision of the story that begins and ends in joy, that is the eucatastrophe of history. I have spent much time reading the discussion on this page and value your opinions, especially John & Arabella. Phil Keaggy agreed to work with us musically, would any of you consider joining in our struggle and our vision? Arabella – on the note of reaching millions, including those who steer clear of Christian bookstores and Evangelical subculture, we can testify to that reality from first-hand experience. Not that our music reaches millions – I wish – but the only critique we experience comes from the church. Even songs in which the Christian message is hard to miss meet the approval of “non-Christian” audiences.

I have two sisters who consider themselves Christians and two who call themselves witches. The greatest enthusiasm comes from the witches who feel like the poetry of our songs resonates with their soul and who seek us out again and again to discuss spirituality. By contrast, one of the Christian sisters refuses to speak to us because of doctrinal differences and our financial hardship.

A wonderful resource for understanding faith struggles today is Alam Jamieson’s “A Churchless Faith” – that book has helped me understand my only journey more than anything else.

On a different note, we are working on a heptalogy called The Chrysalis Legend. It is barely in it’s infancy stage and we recognize that our experience and education is so minimal that we are doomed to turn it into something pathetically cheesy, like so many other “Christian” attempts at art. We’re hoping it will be a collaboration of artists and scholars.

It is birthed out of our struggle to believe as well as our fascination with the epic and the glimpses we have caught of Tolkien’s vision of the story that begins and ends in joy, that is the eucatastrophe of history. I have spent much time reading the discussion on this page and value your opinions, especially John & Arabella. Phil Keaggy agreed to work with us musically, would any of you consider joining in our struggle and our vision?

]]> By: Arabella Figg http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1624 Arabella Figg Mon, 06 Aug 2007 17:13:21 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1624 As to specific questions John asked at the beginning of this thread. The terms he uses have changed over time: "Saint," from set-apart believer in Christ, means believer set above others, as in the Catholic tradition." Apologist" means, like C.S. Lewis, a professional defender of the faith. "Evangelical" means culturally conservative. "Christian writer" means (good writer or not) funneling the reader through a specific faith mindset to categorical answers. We need to eschew such limiting reductionism; we express Christian witness through individual faith, gifts, talents and styles, and definitely struggle and doubt. Rowling has let her heart speak through her books and done a remarkable job in conveying the best of the Christian story. St. Francis of Asissi said, “Preach the Gospel always, but only use words if necessary." This applies equally to storytelling; a good, timeless story that provokes thought from a Christian worldview, using elements of "the great story" to "baptize the imagination," will reach millions as opposed to only those who frequent Christian bookstores. Oops, gotta to--Minerva McHawkhairball wants to play... As to specific questions John asked at the beginning of this thread. The terms he uses have changed over time:

“Saint,” from set-apart believer in Christ, means believer set above others, as in the Catholic tradition.” Apologist” means, like C.S. Lewis, a professional defender of the faith. “Evangelical” means culturally conservative. “Christian writer” means (good writer or not) funneling the reader through a specific faith mindset to categorical answers.

We need to eschew such limiting reductionism; we express Christian witness through individual faith, gifts, talents and styles, and definitely struggle and doubt. Rowling has let her heart speak through her books and done a remarkable job in conveying the best of the Christian story.

St. Francis of Asissi said, “Preach the Gospel always, but only use words if necessary.” This applies equally to storytelling; a good, timeless story that provokes thought from a Christian worldview, using elements of “the great story” to “baptize the imagination,” will reach millions as opposed to only those who frequent Christian bookstores.

Oops, gotta to–Minerva McHawkhairball wants to play…

]]> By: dudders57 http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1623 dudders57 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 01:39:43 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1623 I really dont see where it is of supreme importance what JKR's specific beliefs are or what she should reveal to the press. Afterall our Lord admonished us to "...not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine,lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." (Mat.7v6) And to me that is what the press is best at. I myself struggle daily in my walk and faith, but I also look to Christ as the author and finisher of my faith and not to myself as if I could do anything. Just my two cents worth. I really dont see where it is of supreme importance what JKR’s specific beliefs are or what she should reveal to the press. Afterall our Lord admonished us to “…not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine,lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.” (Mat.7v6) And to me that is what the press is best at.
I myself struggle daily in my walk and faith, but I also look to Christ as the author and finisher of my faith and not to myself as if I could do anything. Just my two cents worth.

]]> By: Odon http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1622 Odon Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:46:55 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1622 The more you get around the harder it gets to believe. I have been traveling full-time for almost 2 years and seen more corruption and injustice than I could have ever imagined existed. In addition I have learned in part what it is like to be famous. I am part of a celtic medieval band, we play songs based on bible stories, and they way we are treated by the church has been shocking. We are either completely demonized and treated like Abanes treats J.K. Rowling, in writing as well as in personal encounters, or we are idolized and expected to live up to unrealistic standards as "the only celtic medieval Christian band" around. In light of these experiences it has become harder and harder to have faith, in the church most of all, but also in God himself who does nothing or little to intervene against injustice and the constant abuse of his name. At times it seems impossible to believe at all, but then we are somehow always drawn back. The overly simplistic reductionistic faith systems of evangelical christianity do little to attract intellectuals and the more we learn the less we can adhere to the neatly constructed theological systems. Faith is a hard thing to hold on to, especially in the face of a Christian world, not a secular world. In the secular realm we fare quite well... The more you get around the harder it gets to believe. I have been traveling full-time for almost 2 years and seen more corruption and injustice than I could have ever imagined existed. In addition I have learned in part what it is like to be famous. I am part of a celtic medieval band, we play songs based on bible stories, and they way we are treated by the church has been shocking. We are either completely demonized and treated like Abanes treats J.K. Rowling, in writing as well as in personal encounters, or we are idolized and expected to live up to unrealistic standards as “the only celtic medieval Christian band” around.

In light of these experiences it has become harder and harder to have faith, in the church most of all, but also in God himself who does nothing or little to intervene against injustice and the constant abuse of his name. At times it seems impossible to believe at all, but then we are somehow always drawn back.

The overly simplistic reductionistic faith systems of evangelical christianity do little to attract intellectuals and the more we learn the less we can adhere to the neatly constructed theological systems. Faith is a hard thing to hold on to, especially in the face of a Christian world, not a secular world. In the secular realm we fare quite well…

]]> By: John http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1621 John Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:34:06 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1621 Not that I know of! John Not that I know of!

John

]]> By: jdilbeck http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1620 jdilbeck Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:29:28 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1620 If you do a Google Earth search for 12 Grimmauld Place, you find it really exists. Not only that, but it's quite close to King's Cross... Is there any significance? If you do a Google Earth search for 12 Grimmauld Place, you find it really exists. Not only that, but it’s quite close to King’s Cross… Is there any significance?

]]> By: lmf3b http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1619 lmf3b Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:26:18 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1619 I posted something of this on the Narrative Misdirection thread, (before I read the interview, BTW) but it works here better. Amid all the discussion about whether a clearly flawed Dumbledore can be a God- or Christ-figure, I’d like to suggest that Dumbledore could instead, or additionally, represent the church as an institution. Clearly, in Harry’s eyes, Dumbledore goes from the “flawless-father-figure-who-is-always-right” to a more human figure, particularly after the death of Sirius, when Harry, for the first time gets angry with Dumbledore and questions his judgments and motives. Rita Skeeter’s book reflects many modern-day tendencies of secular society, perhaps especially academics?) to cut down the established church: it’s corrupt, it’s hypocritical, it’s built on a biased and falsified history, it hasn’t really given us all the good things it take credit for (”12 uses of dragon’s blood? Someone else had already discovered 8 of them!”) Note that these accusations, like Rita’s, are not necessarily entirely without merit, although Rita's motivation for revealing them is entirely to boost her own importance and sell books, not out of any real desire to uncover the truth and that, given a choice, she’ll go with the juiciest rumor “Ariana was a Squib!” rather than the best supported facts. There's a grain of truth in what she says, and Harry has to discern what it is and acknowledge it's ugly reality, before he can choose to accept Dumbledore's guidance. I think it’s significant that Harry’s deconstruction of Dumbledore takes place at the end of his education, when he’s done with his OWLS and working on his NEWTS. Certainly college is the time a lot of young adults encounter scholarship that leads them to question the basic tenets of heir faith; it's also the time people are most likely to disociate from church involvement. You can even hear some typical questioning from Snape: when he gets angry over the fact that Harry’s being raised “like a pig for slaughter.” Why isn’t the Church outraged at that very idea? Why is it willing to consider that a viable option? How many believers have struggled to make sense of that same basic tenet: a God who allows and even wills the sacrifice of His Son. But, in the end, Harry realizes that Dumbledore, imperfect, flawed and sinful as he is, does have the basic plan of salvation right, not because he chose it to be that way, but because that is the way that it is. Yes, he has made mistakes on the way, even ones that are bigger than average. It's not hard to point to mistakes established churches have made, either, whether they be codemning Galileo or endorsing slavery. Dumbledore does eventually recognize repent of wrongdoings, corrects what he can and tries to make fewer mistakes in the future. He remains flawed, and there are still gaps in his understanding, but in the end he points Harry in the correct direction, and Harry chooses to take it. If Rowling has herself struggled with her faith, yet choosen to call herself a Christian despite her realization that neither the church or its human leaders are without fault, this interprtation makes sense. I posted something of this on the Narrative Misdirection thread, (before I read the interview, BTW) but it works here better.
Amid all the discussion about whether a clearly flawed Dumbledore can be a God- or Christ-figure, I’d like to suggest that Dumbledore could instead, or additionally, represent the church as an institution. Clearly, in Harry’s eyes, Dumbledore goes from the “flawless-father-figure-who-is-always-right” to a more human figure, particularly after the death of Sirius, when Harry, for the first time gets angry with Dumbledore and questions his judgments and motives. Rita Skeeter’s book reflects many modern-day tendencies of secular society, perhaps especially academics?) to cut down the established church: it’s corrupt, it’s hypocritical, it’s built on a biased and falsified history, it hasn’t really given us all the good things it take credit for (”12 uses of dragon’s blood? Someone else had already discovered 8 of them!”)
Note that these accusations, like Rita’s, are not necessarily entirely without merit, although Rita’s motivation for revealing them is entirely to boost her own importance and sell books, not out of any real desire to uncover the truth and that, given a choice, she’ll go with the juiciest rumor “Ariana was a Squib!” rather than the best supported facts. There’s a grain of truth in what she says, and Harry has to discern what it is and acknowledge it’s ugly reality, before he can choose to accept Dumbledore’s guidance.
I think it’s significant that Harry’s deconstruction of Dumbledore takes place at the end of his education, when he’s done with his OWLS and working on his NEWTS. Certainly college is the time a lot of young adults encounter scholarship that leads them to question the basic tenets of heir faith; it’s also the time people are most likely to disociate from church involvement. You can even hear some typical questioning from Snape: when he gets angry over the fact that Harry’s being raised “like a pig for slaughter.” Why isn’t the Church outraged at that very idea? Why is it willing to consider that a viable option? How many believers have struggled to make sense of that same basic tenet: a God who allows and even wills the sacrifice of His Son.
But, in the end, Harry realizes that Dumbledore, imperfect, flawed and sinful as he is, does have the basic plan of salvation right, not because he chose it to be that way, but because that is the way that it is. Yes, he has made mistakes on the way, even ones that are bigger than average. It’s not hard to point to mistakes established churches have made, either, whether they be codemning Galileo or endorsing slavery. Dumbledore does eventually recognize repent of wrongdoings, corrects what he can and tries to make fewer mistakes in the future. He remains flawed, and there are still gaps in his understanding, but in the end he points Harry in the correct direction, and Harry chooses to take it.
If Rowling has herself struggled with her faith, yet choosen to call herself a Christian despite her realization that neither the church or its human leaders are without fault, this interprtation makes sense.

]]> By: Helen http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1618 Helen Thu, 02 Aug 2007 02:45:17 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1618 _____________________ NYCindividualblog Says: August 1st, 2007 at 6:44 am I don’t mind the fact that she struggles with believing. I think that is in human nature. However, I was disappointed that she did not take this time to proclaim Christ as her savior. _____________________ It may be that in her mind, by identifying herself as a Christian, she IS proclaiming Christ as her savior. _____________________
NYCindividualblog Says:

August 1st, 2007 at 6:44 am
I don’t mind the fact that she struggles with believing. I think that is in human nature. However, I was disappointed that she did not take this time to proclaim Christ as her savior.
_____________________

It may be that in her mind, by identifying herself as a Christian, she IS proclaiming Christ as her savior.

]]> By: Coppinger Bailey http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/deathly-hallows-discussion-point-26-struggling-to-believe-the-nightlinetoday-interviews/comment-page-1/#comment-1617 Coppinger Bailey Thu, 02 Aug 2007 00:40:45 +0000 http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=144#comment-1617 "I believe; help my unbelief." Mark 9-24 I watched the interview Sunday on Dateline, and when I heard Ms. Rowling's response to that particular question, that scripture immediately popped into my mind. It is one that I pray quite often when I am feeling lost or challenged. When I went to look up the particular reference, I read the context of the passage. Jesus (with Peter, James, & John) is visiting a town & Jesus is appalled at the lack of belief that surrounds him. A man asks for Jesus' help in casting out a spirit that has possessed his son since childhood. In the midst of his plea for help, the father says "I believe, help my unbelief." Jesus casts out the unwanted spirit from the son, rebuking the spirit and commanding that it never return. The son appears dead to those around him until Jesus grasps his had and lifts him up, back to life. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts in this thread. I learn so much from everyone. I am sorry that Karl had such an experience with the Episcopal Church. It has not been my own, but I appreciate the honest criticism. “I believe; help my unbelief.” Mark 9-24

I watched the interview Sunday on Dateline, and when I heard Ms. Rowling’s response to that particular question, that scripture immediately popped into my mind. It is one that I pray quite often when I am feeling lost or challenged.

When I went to look up the particular reference, I read the context of the passage. Jesus (with Peter, James, & John) is visiting a town & Jesus is appalled at the lack of belief that surrounds him. A man asks for Jesus’ help in casting out a spirit that has possessed his son since childhood. In the midst of his plea for help, the father says “I believe, help my unbelief.” Jesus casts out the unwanted spirit from the son, rebuking the spirit and commanding that it never return. The son appears dead to those around him until Jesus grasps his had and lifts him up, back to life.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts in this thread. I learn so much from everyone. I am sorry that Karl had such an experience with the Episcopal Church. It has not been my own, but I appreciate the honest criticism.

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