However, I stick by my thoughts that kids (at appropriate ages) should be guided through controversial ideas, helped toward independent critical thinking and not see their elders as fearful of ideas. I also still see Pullman, through the comments here, as hypocritical and a propagandist. But, if kids are helped to see this and how that affects the slants of literature, that might be the best value they receive from the books.

Christians need to get out of the “duck and cover” mentality when it comes to grappling with things outside their comfort zone.

I read things some Christians would question (such as Harry Potter!). I recently read The Abstinence Teacher by Tom Perotta because I thought it would be incendiary to Christians and wanted to be able to discuss it. Laugh on me. Pullman took front and center and, as far as I know, Perotta made no waves with a thoughtful, though weak, R-rated book with what I felt was a dishonest ending.

I’m eager to read The Little White Horse; never heard of it.

Hope you all had a great Christmas, the kitties are in tissue paper heaven…

Is there good church in the books? That is, are there people within the church that do actually fit the Christian ideal (not necessarily without difficulty, but not like the overarching Magisterium which seems to pursue power and not charity).

For comparison, the film The Mission (1986, Jeremy Irons, Robert de Niro) has some serious criticisms of the Church. The basic story, for those who haven’t seen, is that there are Jesuits who actually care about the native peoples in South America, meanwhile a cardinal has been called in to help Spain and Portugal decide how to divvie up the ‘goods’– the natives’ lands and them (who are taken as slaves). The Church is shown to be cooperating with evil, even as the cardinal (or bishop perhaps) realises that he is doing so. But the faith of the Jesuits and the native peoples is real– we have a true depiction of what “church” should be– loving kindness, faith, etc.– versus stately power. The film offers very valid criticisms of the church, but it does not reject God, the Church, Christianity, faith, etc. It shows what those things are at their best as well as their worst.

I too have not read HDM. I plan to if I can find the time because I wish to be informed, and I know some folks who are faithful and faith-filled who like them. My issue is that it’s not enough to point out what’s wrong to kids. I teach high school confirmation class and have volunteered with kids in grades K-3. If they read those books, they’re not going to read it the way an adult would, evaluating the critique and comparing it with the reality. They’re going to say, “The Magisterium is bad,” (which is correct in Pullman’s universe). That’s not meant to insult kids– but I don’t think it’s being unfair to assume that parents will need to discuss those issues with kids, and I frankly don’t see that happening in most families, unfortunately (after all, we now have commercials reminding families to eat dinner together- I thought that was what families did).

The other problem is the co-optation of church terms. I thought hard about this with JKR’s work, too, with terms like “apparition.” But she uses the words literally, which doesn’t affect the meaning of “the apparition of the Virgin Mary at Lourdes.” Pullman, however, has chosen the term for the teaching authority of the Catholic Church and made it a horrible, twisted, awful, power-hungry and ultimately evil institution. I taught my 10th graders about the Magisterium in October. I didn’t realise at the time I was fighting uphill against a false meaning that will now have a multi-million dollar film spreading it globally.

“The reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong about what is right.” — GK Chesterton. Pullman has a lot of valid critiques in any likelihood. But he doesn’t seem from the myriad articles I’ve read to have considered there are right things about the Church. He also strikes me as turning disingenuous and a bit dishonest– he used to be much more open and acknowledged publicly he was basically assaulting God and religion- these days he claims he’s just trying to sell books. He also billed the books as children’s lit so that his work wouldn’t get ‘side-lined’ as fantasy and would reach a bigger audience (coincidentally, a much more impressionable one as well).

anyway, I need to get off this topic I think, but I would definitely appreciate the insights of those who have read Pullman and think his works are not problematic to persons of faith to my question and example towards the top (of course, I welcome all other insights as well!)

~Nzie

It looks as though you too had a similar experience to my own in reading the books.

John, just as you were the first with Harry Potter, perhaps you could also be the first Christian to really show what good might be found in His Dark Materials. Just a thought.

And for the record, though it may seem like I’ve been pestering everyone a lot about the value of His Dark Materials, please don’t think of me only as some sort of highly critical guest. I’m really a huge fan of all John’s work on the Harry Potter books and I give him a thousand thanks for such wonderful thought provoking theories and interpretations. Please keep up the good work!

By the way, John, I never got around to responding to you a while back because I was busy at the time, but thanks also for naming my post on Rowling’s church background the “post of the week” way back when. It was quite an honor to receive such kind words from the “professor” himself.

I am Southern Baptist, though I have attended an independent, non-denominational church and would rather be back there. I don’t see much resemblance at all between my church and the Magisterium, but there is no doubt in my mind that Pullman meant to criticize the church with his depiction. Still, I am not much offended by this part of the series. There are evil people everywhere: slums and churches alike.

I am offended by most of the third book, though it would not stop me from reading or recommending the series. I would not recommend the series for younger readers, but certainly young adults should be capable of reading the series and drawing their own conclusions. I think it is important not to censor or ban everything that offends because that would make us too restrictive and controlling – which is part of Pullman’s point.

I think it is possible to comment on the Pullman books & other works without having read them. After all, one wouldn’t say you couldn’t comment on the dangers of drug abuse unless you had first toked up or dropped acid yourself. We can comment on all sorts of things without actually having done them or read them, but the trick is to know what you’re talking about, which still involves doing research.

But a tad of news on various movie projects mentioned in this thread, FWIW.

“The Little White Horse” is indeed in production, with a release date of Oct. 2008 slated. However, it doesn’t seem to have a distributor, which is somewhat odd. It’s shooting in Hungary.

The movie’s current title is “The Secret of Moonacre.” (Not a great title, but I think we can guarantee that a movie titled “The Little White Horse” is doomed to crash and burn at the box office.) A previous working title was “The Moon Princess” — but again, dangerous to use the word “princess” in a movie title if you want anyone to come other than little girls. (Look at how “Cinderella Man” crashed — no one who wants to go to a boxing movie will attend something with that title!)

As for “The Hobbit…” Yes, Peter Jackson is involved again, after 3 years of legal wrangling with New Line (the co. that produced and distributed the movie version of “LOTR”). He will not direct, as he has prior commitments to direct “The Lovely Bones” and “Tintin.” Early rumors are that Sam Raimi (“Spider-Man”) may direct. But it’s early. And unless they go outside the U.S., they won’t have a writer for a while.

And they are talking about “The Hobbit” and “its sequel.” Huh? What sequel? (Wouldn’t that be LOTR itself??) Since no one has answered this rather obvious question, it would seem they are planning to split the story in half. I’m not sure why, frankly (other than the double box office sure to result). The movie(s) will shoot in 2009 for 2010/2011 release.

How does this all tie back to “His Dark Materials”? Well, New Line also released “Golden Compass.” And Bob Shaye, the head of New Line, whose job was definitely in some jeopardy with the tanking of “Compass,” has probably just saved it by making nice with Peter Jackson. So there you go.

This is your Hollywood correspondent, signing off and wishing you all a Merry Christmas. (Are we allowed to say that in Hollywood???!!)

–Janet

Arabella Figg, I think you make a very interesting point about how children might react if the approach is entirely negative. A much more positive engagement with the material while still leading them through it and helping them to think it over (and move further along toward becoming mature independent thinkers themselves) seems like a much more fruitful approach. Of course, there will be parents who don’t care what their kids do or about guiding their kids toward what is right, but I suspect there are greater issues in those cases than Pullman’s book trilogy. I’m just speculating here though…

As for some of the other comments from Perelandra, I think you’re confusing fantasy too much with reality. Remember that this book series also has characters moving from one world to another by cutting openings with a special knife (or traveling north to some mysterious intersection of worlds), not to mention the daemons, flying witches, talking polar bears, etc.

Perhaps I’m wrong, but I would think that such a fantastical reality would cause kids to question its veracity (even while enjoying its highly imaginative realms). So they might ask questions such as the following: Is the Catholic Church really that way in our own real world? Whether it is or isn’t, are the acts of the Magisterium in Pullman’s world right or wrong? If the Christianity of the novels isn’t a healthy way of living, then what does that mean for the real Christianity of our world, which may or may not at times slip into similar unhealthy forms? (After all, Jesus himself suggests this happens from time to time in history, with his criticisms of the Jewish religious authorities, the disciples, and then the churches in the Book of Revelation.)

As for the questions about God, I think Pullman again is at least raising interesting questions. It forces the reader to ask, Who is the God of Christianity or whatever belief in God I might hold to? Are “power” and “control” the central concerns of this God (or any religion which claims to be inspired by a god)? Should a Christian live their life in fear of offending or disappointing this God, or is there more to the picture, such as God being loving? But how is God loving and how is that expressed in the faith community that I belong to?

Power and the abuse of it, after all, seem to be quite central to Pullman’s books:

“Religion is at its best when it’s far from power,” Pullman said. “When a religion gains power, it goes bad.”

Noting that “His Dark Materials” was more a critique against tyrannical and theological societies than organized religion, Pullman explained that in places like Stalin’s Soviet Union (where the “holy book” was written by Marx and the “priesthood” would be the Communist Party) or his heroine Lyra’s world, history was no longer moving toward something.

http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1573211/20071031/story.jhtml

So he does sort of admit that atheists can abuse power too! Of course, one question he never raises is whether the supposedly neutral science itself might abuse power if it had an authoritative role (as it does in our own day and age), but the more I read, the more I find that rarely is a book entirely balanced, so I can’t cast Pullman aside simply for this neglect. Therefore, yes, Pullman clearly has an ax to grind and he clearly paints a caricature of Christianity, and consequently he is sort of a hypocrite, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t still raise engaging questions in the process. And if you can remember that his world is a place of fantasy, then I think you’ll find yourself a little more impressed by some of his creations within it, rather than simply being angered or annoyed by the deviant usage of Christian names/symbols.

In the end, I still think that though the books are far from the best I’ve ever read (and not as good as Harry Potter), they’re still a lot better than most of what’s out there and just like Arabella Figg, I think kids would gain a lot more from reading them versus many of the other activities they typically spend their time doing nowadays. And I also still think that merely telling people not to read the books hearkens back to the days of the Index of prohibited books in Catholic history, something that definitely reminds me of the authoritarian Magisterium in Pullman’s world.

Is there really no good whatsoever that could come from these books? If you have the slightest bit of free time, I recommend just reading at least the first book before judging them.

Don’t think I’ll waste my time reading these. Thanks for no brickbats.

Merry Christmas to you all!

The kitties can’t wait for all that wrapping paper and ribbon…

Oh well, what do you expect of a man who thinks they burned witches at Salem?