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	<title>Comments on: Invocational or Incantational? A Question About Harry Potter Magic</title>
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	<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/</link>
	<description>Thoughts for the Serious Reader of Harry Potter</description>
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		<title>By: Trew</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2424</link>
		<dc:creator>Trew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2424</guid>
		<description>Divine and demonic characters really do not exist in Harry Potter to be invoked. The divine and the demonic instead exist as metaphorical characters within the stories. So Satan (qua Satan) does not exist in the Harry Potter universe. Instead the villain of the book plays the role of current devil. In OotP, for instance, the &quot;devil&quot; or &quot;adversary&quot; is Umbridge. In CoS it was Riddlemort.

Lord Voldemort, as we find out in DH and his name implies, is Death or, more specifically, the fear of death. He also fills the role of adversary in several books (1,2 and 7), but those roles are shared with another character and I think his name implies that he has always been the figure of Death rather than the Devil, a division probably arising from Tarot symbology, where there is a card for each.

As for the Divine, Harry is a manifest Christ symbol in DH and has been a cryptic one for the entire series. While the Father does not appear in Harry Potter as a character, when it comes down to it this is also true of the New Testament. It implies nothing in particular in either case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Divine and demonic characters really do not exist in Harry Potter to be invoked. The divine and the demonic instead exist as metaphorical characters within the stories. So Satan (qua Satan) does not exist in the Harry Potter universe. Instead the villain of the book plays the role of current devil. In OotP, for instance, the &#8220;devil&#8221; or &#8220;adversary&#8221; is Umbridge. In CoS it was Riddlemort.</p>
<p>Lord Voldemort, as we find out in DH and his name implies, is Death or, more specifically, the fear of death. He also fills the role of adversary in several books (1,2 and 7), but those roles are shared with another character and I think his name implies that he has always been the figure of Death rather than the Devil, a division probably arising from Tarot symbology, where there is a card for each.</p>
<p>As for the Divine, Harry is a manifest Christ symbol in DH and has been a cryptic one for the entire series. While the Father does not appear in Harry Potter as a character, when it comes down to it this is also true of the New Testament. It implies nothing in particular in either case.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2423</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 15:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2423</guid>
		<description>I dipped into Deathly Hallows again last night and noticed that there&#039;s one place where Rowling could have put something which readers of other fantasy fiction would certainly have recognized as invocational &quot;white magic.&quot; She didn&#039;t; she used something else. When Harry, Ron, and Hermione escape from the Death Eater attack at Xenophilius Lovegood&#039;s house and Apparate back to their little tent by the skin of their teeth, Hermione runs around with her wand and says a bunch of the usual Rowling-created latinate spells of protection. This was the perfect spot to have put somethng truly invocational, and she didn&#039;t. I&#039;m a little chary of giving examples of the other approach, the one she didn&#039;t use, but trust me, it&#039;s quite consistent and apparently based on real-world occultic beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dipped into Deathly Hallows again last night and noticed that there&#8217;s one place where Rowling could have put something which readers of other fantasy fiction would certainly have recognized as invocational &#8220;white magic.&#8221; She didn&#8217;t; she used something else. When Harry, Ron, and Hermione escape from the Death Eater attack at Xenophilius Lovegood&#8217;s house and Apparate back to their little tent by the skin of their teeth, Hermione runs around with her wand and says a bunch of the usual Rowling-created latinate spells of protection. This was the perfect spot to have put somethng truly invocational, and she didn&#8217;t. I&#8217;m a little chary of giving examples of the other approach, the one she didn&#8217;t use, but trust me, it&#8217;s quite consistent and apparently based on real-world occultic beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Trew</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2422</link>
		<dc:creator>Trew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2422</guid>
		<description>While &quot;Flesh, Blood and Bone&quot; is clearly meant to suggest something similar to a Black Mass, I don&#039;t think the magic can really be &quot;invocational&quot;. If a demonic entity were being invoked, then surely the formula would not be &quot;you will resurrect your *foe*. A demonic entity would not be a foe to Voldemort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While &#8220;Flesh, Blood and Bone&#8221; is clearly meant to suggest something similar to a Black Mass, I don&#8217;t think the magic can really be &#8220;invocational&#8221;. If a demonic entity were being invoked, then surely the formula would not be &#8220;you will resurrect your *foe*. A demonic entity would not be a foe to Voldemort.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2421</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2421</guid>
		<description>This is not difficult or muddied. Invocational magic is calling down demonic help from the fallen osychic realm; invoking aid from the spiritual realm is prayer. Incantational magic is literally &quot;singing along with&quot; the Creative Word-fabric of creation, co-creating as an image of God. In the tradition of English letters, the first magic is bad, the second an imaginative support to a Christian world-view. Objections to Harry Potter based on their magic are bizarre, consequently, however well-intentioned because there is no invocational magic in the books.

Please don&#039;t introduce a &quot;new labeling scheme&quot; or confuse what is plain. Your assertion that both incantational and invocational can be used to describe activities in both realms is true -- but only if they are used indiscriminately and incorrectly. Use these words with their proper meanings as derived from the Latin and this false problem disappears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is not difficult or muddied. Invocational magic is calling down demonic help from the fallen osychic realm; invoking aid from the spiritual realm is prayer. Incantational magic is literally &#8220;singing along with&#8221; the Creative Word-fabric of creation, co-creating as an image of God. In the tradition of English letters, the first magic is bad, the second an imaginative support to a Christian world-view. Objections to Harry Potter based on their magic are bizarre, consequently, however well-intentioned because there is no invocational magic in the books.</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t introduce a &#8220;new labeling scheme&#8221; or confuse what is plain. Your assertion that both incantational and invocational can be used to describe activities in both realms is true &#8212; but only if they are used indiscriminately and incorrectly. Use these words with their proper meanings as derived from the Latin and this false problem disappears.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnABaptist</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2420</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnABaptist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2420</guid>
		<description>My intent in introducing the concept of &quot;heart&quot; was based on Jesus&#039; saying recorded in the Book of Matthew:

&quot;Matthew 15:18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a person. 15:19 For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 15:20 These are the things that defile a person; it is not eating with unwashed hands that defiles a person.”

Luke records a similar saying:

&quot; 45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.&quot;

My concern was not with the concept of spiritual vs. psychic realms, in fact I agree that they are the real point here!  My objection is to the use of the labels &quot;incantational&quot; vs &quot;invocational&quot; to differentiate the two when in fact, both verbs apply equally to activities in both realms.  It is this labeling which I feel &quot;muddies the issue&quot; especially with those new come to the debates.

In my opinion, it is not the manner of speaking which is forbidden, it is the person or realm to whom you are addressing your remarks that matters.

I would like for us to find and use labels that focus on the differences between the two realms which the current labeling scheme does not seem to do.  I do not however have a good candidate readily to mind, I&#039;ll have to work on it, perhaps others can too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My intent in introducing the concept of &#8220;heart&#8221; was based on Jesus&#8217; saying recorded in the Book of Matthew:</p>
<p>&#8220;Matthew 15:18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a person. 15:19 For out of the heart come evil ideas, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 15:20 These are the things that defile a person; it is not eating with unwashed hands that defiles a person.”</p>
<p>Luke records a similar saying:</p>
<p>&#8221; 45A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.&#8221;</p>
<p>My concern was not with the concept of spiritual vs. psychic realms, in fact I agree that they are the real point here!  My objection is to the use of the labels &#8220;incantational&#8221; vs &#8220;invocational&#8221; to differentiate the two when in fact, both verbs apply equally to activities in both realms.  It is this labeling which I feel &#8220;muddies the issue&#8221; especially with those new come to the debates.</p>
<p>In my opinion, it is not the manner of speaking which is forbidden, it is the person or realm to whom you are addressing your remarks that matters.</p>
<p>I would like for us to find and use labels that focus on the differences between the two realms which the current labeling scheme does not seem to do.  I do not however have a good candidate readily to mind, I&#8217;ll have to work on it, perhaps others can too.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2419</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 03:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2419</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d disagree here with that last. Please read the distinction made between the spiritual and psychic realms in &quot;Looking for God in Harry Potter.&quot; Invocations made to the one are dangerous and forbidden, to the other, they are &quot;prayer.&quot; Introducing the matter of one&#039;s heart muddies the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d disagree here with that last. Please read the distinction made between the spiritual and psychic realms in &#8220;Looking for God in Harry Potter.&#8221; Invocations made to the one are dangerous and forbidden, to the other, they are &#8220;prayer.&#8221; Introducing the matter of one&#8217;s heart muddies the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnABaptist</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2418</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnABaptist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 03:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2418</guid>
		<description>&quot;Come, Lord Jesus, be our guest and let this food to us be blessed.&quot;

That is an invocation, a calling upon a supernatural Being to come into our presence.

If it is said and meant from the heart it is very good indeed.

If it is merely incanted as quickly as can be said because Daddy insists on Grace at every meal, then it is not such a good thing after all.

According to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/invoke&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Webster &lt;/a&gt; invoke is defined as:

1 a: to petition for help or support b: to appeal to or cite as authority
2: to call forth by incantation : conjure
...

So if one wishes to invoke, one incants.

Whether this incantation leads to the invocation of good or evil depends on the intent and choice of the person acting in the moment.  Therefore, it would be wiser to look into the heart of the actor rather than to listen to the  speeches of his mouth to determine what kind of magic is being practiced.

Using that standard, the Dark Arts and Light Arts of the Potter narrative fall into place rather quickly.  Clearly Harry and Friends are on the side of Light and Voldemort and Associates are in the Dark.

In the absence of human action and its guiding intent, there is neither good nor evil for only Sentient Beings can sin.

Or as Arabella would say, &quot;Kitties don&#039;t sin...they just purr and scratch.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Come, Lord Jesus, be our guest and let this food to us be blessed.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is an invocation, a calling upon a supernatural Being to come into our presence.</p>
<p>If it is said and meant from the heart it is very good indeed.</p>
<p>If it is merely incanted as quickly as can be said because Daddy insists on Grace at every meal, then it is not such a good thing after all.</p>
<p>According to <a href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/invoke" rel="nofollow">Webster </a> invoke is defined as:</p>
<p>1 a: to petition for help or support b: to appeal to or cite as authority<br />
2: to call forth by incantation : conjure<br />
&#8230;</p>
<p>So if one wishes to invoke, one incants.</p>
<p>Whether this incantation leads to the invocation of good or evil depends on the intent and choice of the person acting in the moment.  Therefore, it would be wiser to look into the heart of the actor rather than to listen to the  speeches of his mouth to determine what kind of magic is being practiced.</p>
<p>Using that standard, the Dark Arts and Light Arts of the Potter narrative fall into place rather quickly.  Clearly Harry and Friends are on the side of Light and Voldemort and Associates are in the Dark.</p>
<p>In the absence of human action and its guiding intent, there is neither good nor evil for only Sentient Beings can sin.</p>
<p>Or as Arabella would say, &#8220;Kitties don&#8217;t sin&#8230;they just purr and scratch.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: rumor</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2417</link>
		<dc:creator>rumor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:23:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2417</guid>
		<description>I have often wondered about the Inferi and how they were used by Voldemort whether or not that was evil sorcery.

As for me, the Bourgin and Bourkes store scenes makes me never to want to go antiqueing ever again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have often wondered about the Inferi and how they were used by Voldemort whether or not that was evil sorcery.</p>
<p>As for me, the Bourgin and Bourkes store scenes makes me never to want to go antiqueing ever again.</p>
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		<title>By: James P.</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2416</link>
		<dc:creator>James P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2416</guid>
		<description>It seems by this magical pluralism (invocational vs incantational magic or the spritual good/evil world that Arabella mentions) that those of us less versed in the various imagery used in traditional literature can sometimes wind up trapped without a satisfactory answer for those that argue that Potterworld depicts the use of &quot;white magic&quot; against &quot;black magic&quot; knowing full well that all magic is Biblically forbidden. As we delve deeper into the types of scenarios described by Christopher and Arabella, we tend to get mired by the details. While I don&#039;t believe the Potter books to contain &quot;real&quot; spells or invocations hidden in the vernacular that can call up demons, it sometimes gets difficult to convince even otherwise &quot;reasonable&quot; opponents in light of the discussion points so far. I know this sounds like a step backward, but do have any tips John, for working through this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems by this magical pluralism (invocational vs incantational magic or the spritual good/evil world that Arabella mentions) that those of us less versed in the various imagery used in traditional literature can sometimes wind up trapped without a satisfactory answer for those that argue that Potterworld depicts the use of &#8220;white magic&#8221; against &#8220;black magic&#8221; knowing full well that all magic is Biblically forbidden. As we delve deeper into the types of scenarios described by Christopher and Arabella, we tend to get mired by the details. While I don&#8217;t believe the Potter books to contain &#8220;real&#8221; spells or invocations hidden in the vernacular that can call up demons, it sometimes gets difficult to convince even otherwise &#8220;reasonable&#8221; opponents in light of the discussion points so far. I know this sounds like a step backward, but do have any tips John, for working through this?</p>
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		<title>By: Arabella Figg</title>
		<link>http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/invocational-or-incantational-a-question-about-harry-potter-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-2415</link>
		<dc:creator>Arabella Figg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=208#comment-2415</guid>
		<description>John, something struck me as I read this. We&#039;re not told much about the Dark Arts of WizWorld.

We get a good grounding in the Unforgivable Curses, and we see some dark stuff in the Bourgin &amp; Bourkes shop in Knockturn Alley, such as the Hand of Glory and the opal necklace that later almost killed Hannah Abbot. But we&#039;re not told how these things came to be, were cursed or worked. We do know that the success of any charm or curse comes from the intent of the person performing them.

The Malfoy household is filled with dark stuff. Durmstrang students learn the Dark Arts rather than merely defense against them. Voldemort and his Death Eaters pursue and use them to further his evil, vanglorious agenda.

In my mind, it&#039;s possible some invocational sorcery could have been involved in the Dark Arts and that&#039;s one reason Ministry Aurors clamped down on wizards using them. Indirectly, Rowling did write a spiritual good/evil world. When DA are used, it&#039;s always by the bad guys. The Unforgivable Curses are used only in desperation by the good guys in a dire war battle to the death.

Rowling was wise to not dwell on nor reveal much about the Dark Arts of WizWorld. We see just enough to see how bad and repulsive they are. Instead Rowling invites and persuades the reader to want to reach for a better, spiritually healthy, life-affirming way.

Thudders is inviting me to check out his kibble supply...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, something struck me as I read this. We&#8217;re not told much about the Dark Arts of WizWorld.</p>
<p>We get a good grounding in the Unforgivable Curses, and we see some dark stuff in the Bourgin &amp; Bourkes shop in Knockturn Alley, such as the Hand of Glory and the opal necklace that later almost killed Hannah Abbot. But we&#8217;re not told how these things came to be, were cursed or worked. We do know that the success of any charm or curse comes from the intent of the person performing them.</p>
<p>The Malfoy household is filled with dark stuff. Durmstrang students learn the Dark Arts rather than merely defense against them. Voldemort and his Death Eaters pursue and use them to further his evil, vanglorious agenda.</p>
<p>In my mind, it&#8217;s possible some invocational sorcery could have been involved in the Dark Arts and that&#8217;s one reason Ministry Aurors clamped down on wizards using them. Indirectly, Rowling did write a spiritual good/evil world. When DA are used, it&#8217;s always by the bad guys. The Unforgivable Curses are used only in desperation by the good guys in a dire war battle to the death.</p>
<p>Rowling was wise to not dwell on nor reveal much about the Dark Arts of WizWorld. We see just enough to see how bad and repulsive they are. Instead Rowling invites and persuades the reader to want to reach for a better, spiritually healthy, life-affirming way.</p>
<p>Thudders is inviting me to check out his kibble supply&#8230;</p>
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