Ah, poor Gale! He is the hero of District 12 and of Katniss’ family for rescuing as many residents of the Seam as he did from the fire bombing, but the experience of seeing his community destroyed and Peeta being hijacked seems to have taken him around the twist. Gale winds up designing weapons and explosives that are as bad because taken from the same twisted playbook as the Capitol. Katniss’ final decision for Peeta rather than Gale because she did not need “Gale’s fire, kindled with rage and hatred” seemed about right. We knew that Gale raged against the Capitol, but, if you were like me, you didn’t seem him embracing war crimes as in burying people alive needlessly or creating sequentially fused bombs to take out rescue workers to defeat his enemies.
Was that too big a jump for the man of the Seam or about right? Does it capture, in contrast with Peeta’s PTSD agonies, another side of how war changes those who fight them?
Oh Gale.
I had a a very similar reaction to Gale’s story arc. In the first two books you don’t get to know much about Gale except that he does have have a blazing angry streak and that he goes out of this way for people.
And I really wanted to get to know him better this book. Sadly, I liked him best when I only got small glimpses of him.
I suppose she set up his “victim-becomes-aggressor” model quite early for us. I don’t know if I’m right, but you get that sense in the way he talks to/ takes his frustration out on Madge in the beginning of The Hunger Games.
He made me a little heartsick and I was left feeling a great sense of sadness by his actions in The Mockingjay. But, to be fair, he was also the most realistic depiction of wartime youth, in some ways.
I don’t know if I’m going to far with this, but he is that guy who saw his people suffer and it made him so angry that he reacts by making someone else suffer. He will never quite learn to empathise with The Other’s suffering but he finds injustice in blanket revenge. Because everyone’s complicit.
And really, I suppose that’s what made this book so hard to read. So much of it sounds so steeped in reality.
I definitely agree.
Gale is so singularly focused on one thing, and one thing only: overthrowing the Capital. To him, the world is black and white. The Capital is evil and all the Districts are good. He sees anyone who sides with the Capital, or who is favored by them in anyway as evil.
The first hints of this were in The Hunger Games, when he takes his frustations out of Madge. And then when he had no sympathy for the prep team, it became even more clear: Gale didn’t see them as people, but as animals.
I applaud Collins for the realism she uses with him as a character. Often times, the enemy is dehumanized, which makes it easier to shoot now and ask questions later. Gale does this. But now that the Revolution is over, he is left with the question of whether what he did is right or wrong. And what his part was in Prim’s death. And I think that these will haunt Gale for a long, long time.
And Katniss does try to warn him, doesn’t she? She tries to tell him how killing is easier in theory because you can never envision how your dead will haunt you. I agree that all of that will indeed haunt Gale for a long, long time.
Like Johanna pointed out, everyone has changed. Gale was always furious at the Capitol; I agree, in war, he was driven by that passion and didn’t see clearly.
On a slightly related note, I just realized: the bomb-once, human-compassion, bomb-again theory was the very same one that injured Katniss and killed Prim. Coincidence?
Not a coincidence… I thought the book made it pretty clear it was the Gale-designed bomb that killed Prim, though I honestly believe he would have never intentionally hurt her.
Ah, forgot to add “I think not.” I’m just disheartened by that reality, is all.
Looks like I read this in a completely different way, as far as Gale becoming a ‘bad guy’. I don’t see him as a “bad guy” at all. In fact, some would consider him a war hero. I haven’t decided for sure whether I’d go that far (to call him a hero), but I certainly don’t see him as a villain, by any stretch of the imagination.
Gale did what needed to be done. Ugly decisions have to be made during war times. You don’t win a war without weapons, and using weapons will, for the most part, result in loss of life.
The “nut” was just that – a hard nut to crack. And it *had* to crack to end the gross injustices Panem had been inflicting on its enslaved citizenry for nearly a century. It was the solution of last resort.
Ultimately, “the nut” was neutralized. Many District 2 workers lost their lives. In return, the enslavement of Panem (and the loss of countless other lives) came to an end. Sometimes it *does* come down to sacrificing the few to save the many. That’s what war is. It offers only the choice of “bad” or “worse”. Gale opted for “bad”.
War is ugly.
Maybe that’s Collins’ ultimate message.
A tough, tough choice, but one that often *must* be made in times of war. Gale and Beetee (and surely others) had the kahones to make that decision and to live with the consequences. Some of those nasty consequences include being villianized by the very people who are being protected. The very people who aren’t willing to pull the metaphorical trigger. The very people who supposedly part of the rebellion, but when push came to shove, let others do the dirtiest of the dirty work.
In war, lives are lost. And it is tragic. That does not change the fact that there was (at that point) NO OTHER WAY. Either you take out “the nut” or (in the end) the Capitol regains control and the atrocities continue ad infinitem.
Was it horrific? Yes. Was it unfair? Yes. Was it NECESSARY? Yes, most likely it was.
It seems a *major* stretch to believe that Gale planned to take out Prim. In fact, that is laughable. Prim was an unintended casualty of war. If anything, I’d put responsibility for Prim’s death squarely on Coin’s shoulders. It was ultimately her call as to how to use (and when on on whom and under what circumstances) the “double bombs”. And it would have ultimately been her decision whether or not to send a 13 year old child to war (which, by the way, I found extraordinarily unrealistic, as I did Prim’s ridiculous transformation from giggly girl to Katniss’ confidant and war medic in the course of a year).
The bottom line, is that Gale cast as the bad-guy doesn’t hold water with me. The fact that he went back to work in D2 (maybe to rebuild??) should not be ignored, either.
Perhaps when I re-read it in the next few days, I’ll change my mind, but that seems very unlikely.
I don’t think anyone felt that Gale planned on killing Prim either. But I think the point Collins is making is that in war the weapons you make can be used in different ways then you intend them. There will always be a part of Gale that knows he helped design the weapon that ultimately killed Prim. Katniss knows this too and it will forever be a wedge dividing them. That is a pretty realistic aspect of war as wars don’t bring people together they divide, even “necessary” wars.
I think that you can’t look at this book as black or white. I think that the point Collins is driving home is that war is full of grays and that the consequences can be many fold. There is no such thing as a clean war. You have to consider all of this when it comes to war. People react in many ways too. Some do react as Gale and respond to hate with hate. That is realistic. Each person has to find that ethical place they are comfortable with. When is too far too far? She doesn’t give you the answer neatly but asks the question. Katniss waffles continuously on this. She kills an innocent capitol citizen, but she thought the person was sounding an alarm. She wants the war to be cleaner and have clearer rights vs wrongs but there isn’t any neat clean line. I think that is a main point of the books (at least on the surface level).
I thought that Gale helping to design the weapon that ultimately killed Prim was analogous to the people who helped design the atomic bomb. I have seen interviews with them and they have very mixed emotions about the ethical ramifications and their responsibility in it. I am not dictating anyone’s morality here, but these are questions for each person to think about.
I forgot to add that personally I felt that Gale crossed a line. But that is just me. I think that his character direction was very plausible and realistic. If you go back and think about the prior books there were hints.
I admire Gale. In a weird way, he reminded me of the “you can’t handle the truth” genre of military men. In times of war, whether we like their calls or not, the calls have to be made and the rest of us are glad we didn’t have to make them.
I think Gale was the perfect person for the job. Yes, he had the anger, the resentment, but he also had the mind for it. His talent – military strategy.
He will forever live with the question of was Prim’s death his fault, but I think he, above everyone else, understood that in creating plans for war meant their would be casualties.
I don’t know. I think Gale went beyond thinking there would be casualties to not caring there would be casualties. When even battle hardened rebels & District 13 people question his plan to completely kill everyone in the Nut…
If I may bring up Harry Potter on a site called Hogwarts Professor, I think of Sirius Black’s talk with the Trio in Goblet of Fire talking about Barty Crouch Sr. Sirius points out that such times, war that is, brings out the best in some people & the worst in others. That doesn’t mean that war isn’t messy & full of hard choices & doesn’t always appear black & white but that it is still possible to cross a line where anything becomes permissible or excusable in order to win. Peeta is right when he says something to the effect of “you want to turn us into what we fought to destroy,” when he opposes the final proposed Hunger Games.
I have a lot of mixed feelings about this book, and reading other’s comments has both helped me figure out my own opinions and confused me more. But when I finished the book around midnight yesterday, all I could think of was how sorry I felt for Katniss and for Gale.
I sort of considered myself on “Team Gale” before the book, even though I’m probably as close to his opposite as can be (hello, vegan tree-hugger speaking). Even though Peeta has lots of good things going for him, I was a bit disgusted by his infatuation with Katniss. And I still don’t like him all that much, although that’s not all his fault.
I pitied Gale because I wanted them to be together, and she still yearned for Peeta. But I sort of knew they wouldn’t be together, by her lack of jealousy at his kissing others, and by how she could walk away when he told her to “Go!” When she realized what he had been mouthing, it ran through my head that if she loved him in that way, she probably wouldn’t have even considered shooting him. Although maybe I only think that because of other *unrealistic* romance novels.
Towards the end, when Katniss was being tortured by horrible realizations, I knew that Coin wasn’t any better than Snow (who, by the way, seemed quite enlightened in the face of his downfall), and that because Gale was so key in her war, Katniss could never think of him the same again.
Throughout the book, I knew Gale was doing things I could never do, scheming in areas I would whole-heartedly say are immoral. However “necessary”, they are horrible. Necessary? Necessary?! In a world that has fallen, and resurfaced to be only consumed by hatred, how can you call that necessary? Necessary for survival, maybe, but we must look at the whole picture, and hate causes only more grief, more pain, more thirst for revenge, more hatred. It is a cycle that is nearly impossible to break, but breaking it is the only way to find true peace. It is only in a world of love that hatred can be alleviated.
It is imprudent to lay blame to Gale, when it is the world that has made him who he is, has caused him to do what he has done.
I believe that this is Collins’ message: that utopia is impossible; that true peace will never be achieved through hatred and violence; that once the games begin, they never end.
Boe, you said if she didn’t love Gale that way she wouldn’t have considered shooting him… but she was ready to kill Peeta with a syringe (at the beginning of the book, before she knew he’d been captured and brainwashed against her). They knew they’d be better off dead by each others’ hands than tortured at Snow’s.
Sorry, I meant if she DID love Gale that way.
It seemed to me that Katniss was growing more romantically attached to Gale right up until the Nut incident. After that, I started to dislike Gale more and more. I didn’t think his talks about the Capitol were so serious, and that makes me wish I’d heard one or two of his speeches before making predictions about MJ.
I’m not one of those people who lay the blame on Gale or say that he’s a heartless monster because quite frankly the situation he lives in made him that way. He was a born a rebel and thus he planned for it since he knew things had to be done. He planned the weapons and knew that sacrifices would be made because war is ugly, causalities are made, even for the innocent (Prim). War is tragic. This book is an anti-war book. I don’t think he knew that it was going to kill Prim because he’s saved her at least three times in the series. But the only one I can blame for her death is Coin because it just came out to me for that way. Although I do think he was portrayed as a ‘bad guy’ but nevertheless I still liked him. Although I do want to know what his job was even though for others it wouldn’t matter much.
But I’d like to add that I didn’t really expect him to do this.
Gale’s transformation felt false and a plot device. I also felt that the argument against the bombs trapping the workers in District 2 felt really weak. Even killing Prim was unnecessary (other than to create a reason for Katniss to hate Gale). The grey of the previous books was gone. This book felt like a propaganda spot. Sad. I’d been talking up the trilogy as the next great dystopian series. The stumble that is MJ brings great question to that stature. Better to only to have read HG than all 3 is my perception at this point.
Gale’s “anything for the cause” attitude didn’t just pop up out of nowhere. It was there in the previous two books (though not as prevalent as in this one, but I think that’s because Gale as a character isn’t as prevalent in the previous books).
The author’s killing Prim is a way to put a face to the war victims… sure, you can adopt a kill-all attitude but you might not think about the fact that you’re killing someone’s loved ones until one of yours becomes a victim too.
I agree with Britt. The signs were there for Gale in the other books and even Katniss tries to warn him early on in Mockingjay when he makes the transition to creating weapons preying on the psychology of sympathy in his victims. Gale in Catching Fire says he doesn’t want anything “made in the capitol” in reference to Katniss begins to show his anger and fire that is tinged in hate and rage.
One interesting thing for me is that in discussing this book with my husband he recalled a guy vastly similar to Gale in his Dad’s Special Forces group in Vietnam. He was transformed in much the war Gale was and ended up being shaped by hate. He has heard his Dad talk about this guy sadly through the years.
I feel Sunshine that you are just angry, and that is unfortunate. I encourage you to back away from the series and give it some time and gain perspective. It actually remains a really incredible book series. I have to disagree with your assessments that I have been finding posted around this site.
second paragraph – way not war
(sorry, I am trying to oversee my kids ready for school)
I felt bad for Gale in this one. He really has some great, heroic moments. One of my favorite parts of the book is when he tells Katniss that Peeta is not seeing her how she really is. Or when he saves all of their things before 13 is bombed.
But it seemed to me like he just fell apart the more that things happened. And it was almost scary to see how his war strategy took over the way he looked at everything – even his attempts to win over Katniss. I kept thinking he was using his “think like your enemy” strategy in analyzing how things with her would turn out, except that Katniss was the enemy in that scenario. His kissing experiment “traps” that seemed to just reinforce what he already thought, his conversation with Peeta about Katniss choosing whoever she couldn’t survive without, or his “that was the only thing I had going for me” retreat after Prim’s death said to me he was fighting the love triangle “war” the same way he was fighting the war with the Capitol. Except that he was fighting against Katniss. I never thought they were becoming more romantically involved.
The most jarring part for me was that he wasn’t wrong, or at least, inaccurate. His plan on the Nut does work, the bombs were effective, Katniss does pick who she can’t survive without. But all those things felt so wrong. He sort of embodies the idea that being right doesn’t make it right.
Perhaps what disturbs me most about this reading is it’s grim realistic view of what war does.
My father once told me when you fight in a war you don’t think about the cause your fighting for. You are fighting for your life and the guys who are on either side of you. You hate the enemy because he killed what you love. You don’t distinguish that the enemy soldiers are human beings too. They are like animals to you. He once told me of an enemy combatant that he saw after the end of a conflict in Vietnam. As he and others were combing the area a guy in his unit found the man’s wallet and inside was a picture of his family. He told me that everyone went silent as they saw that photo and my father said it was then he realized that the enemy was a man just like him with a family of his own.
Gale’s grim and uncaring view of people who sympathize with the Capitol are totally understanding considering he felt that he had been fighting their oppression and atrocities his whole life. I am certain he blamed them for his father’s death and was further galvanized as he watched them take away the girl he loved and then destroyed his home. It is not unrealistic to see someone react the way he does. I found it brutally honest that Collins see fit to portray him this way. Things like the Me Lai massacre didn’t happen on accident.
I felt like Gale and Katniss and separated long before Prim is so unceremoniously killed by an atrocious act by the perceived good guys. This is just the thing that seals the deal. Her inability to get past it and his inability to forgive himself.
Beautifully put, Aaron. I’m of the same opinion regarding Gale.
Gale was how I expected him to be, and then some more. He was blunt, direct, harsh in combat and rebellion. You know, he brought a very painful and hard perspective to swallow, but in the end very real and very telling.
“You think I’m heartless,” he said. I bet a lot of people are thinking that ’cause it would be easy to. But there are no easy choices, really, no absolute rights. The lines get really blurred. Brings the question of “who are we to judge? ” when we try to think about it.
In a way, I view any possibility Gale could’ve ever had with Katniss as a casualty of war, too. It was extremely hard to read those to pages (pg 366-367). When she asks “was it your bomb?” you know there was no going back. And it was in Gale’s character, I think, “because he alone knows how I [Katniss] operate” (CF), to realize that. That this was a hurdle that could probably never be overcome, and walk away. I have incredible respect for Gale’s character for doing that, as well. Now they both have to live with it. I wonder if time ever helped heal or salvage anything, if only for them not be total strangers.
The “old Katniss” could have ended up with Gale, absolutely. The post-war Katniss could have only been with Peeta. And I say that with the conviction I never felt on the first two books, as I had always enjoyed Gale’s character more than Peeta’s.
I am really intrigued by Gale’s character. I think he is strong and heroic, and like Katniss, a survivor- I felt like I got no closure for him at the end of this series…He has always been one of those silent sufferer types. He will never forgive himself for what happens to Prim- and I know he truly loved Katniss- always cared for her happiness and safety… even in the beginning when she was wondering why Peeta was saying cease fire, it was Gale who told her that Peeta is still protecting her- he knew that she will never be able to forgive him, and that’s why he left- I can’t believe it- their friendship just over like that????Gale will never be the same- he got screwed… I want the author to write another book about Gale- b/c like I said, I’m really intrigued by his character…
I personaly think Katniss problem with Gale and why he embraced the war so fully and powerfully was because Gale is used to being controled, and he influenced easily. Now before all you Gale lovers come kill me, hear me out, im not saying this to criticize him, its in all honsety my opinion and obersvations.
Gale is easily caught up in the idea of a rebelion, from book one he has been talking about it and wishing for one, and when the chance finaly comes around for hid dreams to come true he is all to willing to help. There were numerous situations were Gale sides with Coin rather than with Katniss, and in the end, he didnt go see her after the assationation, becuase he was all for Coin. Gale got caught up in the rebelion that (from my theorys go see the Assination blog comment) was fighting and living just like the government and Snow. Him so easily accepting the idea of killing inocent people and hurting them in ways the government would was stricktly because he was caught up in the whirl-wind of Coins rebelion, not because he is a dark crule person like snow and Coin.
Gale has never really had to fight for his independance like Katniss and Peeta. Even when he was in District 12 he always thought of himself as a reble, someone who didnt follow Snow. And when he gets to 13 he feels as if he plays a roll in the rebelion, and he feels that Katniss does too, he doesnt see how they are useing her just like Snow. He openly admits that he is using the same tactics as Snow, but he doesnt see that as wrong becuase Coin doesnt, and Coin is the leader of the rebelion he has always dreamed of.
I dont think Gale is evil, I just think that because of his lack of experiance outside of 12 he is unable to see what Katniss and Peeta can and could see because they have experiance it before, and he has never had to. I think that if Gale had turned agenst Coin it would have ruined his character, because Gale is the perfect example of how people get caught up in what is going on around them, and get so deep in what someone is telling them that they are unable to step back and look at the situation form a differnt point of view so that they can see all sides of a situation before acting or commiting to something.
I also believe(since it never specifies) that after Katniss’ assationation of Coin, Gale never see’s her agian, and never tries to make amends. Im not saying that in a mean way, because I like Gale I really do, but it is just who is character and personlity are, and it helps explain some of the lessons the book teaches really well.
I think you are singling out Gale more than you need to, Shannon. Saying Gale was easily caught up in Coin’s rebellion implies that the other rebels were in line with Coin. Maybe a few did, of course. But I’m pretty sure the majority were driven by wanting to end the oppression to which they have been subjected for years. Coin had a very specific agenda that not even Katniss saw until Prim’s death.
Katniss, Gale, Peeta, all characters really, are only different example of what war can do to people, no matter which side they are fighting on. Gale is hot-blooded, he is running on raw emotions. Very unsettling at times, but realistic nonetheless. I think it was very blunt of S. Collins to present it at such.
Even Katniss struggles with this as well. She could be very much like Gale. The potential is there, regardless what she thinks or says. We see flashes of it in the story while she is in the midst of combat. When she says “I’m running on hate” or when she shoots the Capitol woman in the heart. But that was not her role to play in the overall scheme of the book, it was Gale’s.
As for the future, if anything can be said about Gale and Katniss is that they know each other very well, they read each other very well. That’s why he knew that he had to leave, and I guess that how they would both know IF they are ever ready to address their issues, or like I said before, willing to at least not become strangers. If he doesn’t think that’s what she would want, no, I don’t think he would attempt it.
Britt: Ahh, I had forgotten the hanging tree song! Yes, you’re right on this one. And of course you’re right about signs about Gale being in prevoius books.
Kathy, I really love your wording! I never even thought about that until reading your comment.
Shannon: I personally disagree with the idea that Gale is easily controlled. I think he always wanted to fight it, he just didn’t have any opportunity or resources to really change much before he got to District 13. He doesn’t actually like Coin, but he (as Catherine said) sees it almost as black and white; she’s on his side, Snow is not. The end. And Snow and Coin are only “dark and cruel” because that is what the world has made them. I would really like to have known more about their backgrounds, and learn how they became like they are. But I do agree with you about that last paragraph you wrote ^-^
There are new Hogwarts Professor discussion posts up now on both ‘The Hanging Tree’ and ‘The Meadow Song.’
I have to say I’m thankful to read all of these responses. I haven’t had any of my friends finish the series yet and I’ve been dying to discuss the Gale situation.
I was team Gale before Mockingjay just due to the old bond that he and Katniss shared. That peace they found in each other in a time of unrest. Unfortunately, as MJ progressed I started to see the change in Gale. I noted, like the rest of us, the subtle changes in his openness of the rebellion. I started to recall the anger Katniss spoke of in the previous books. She mentioned many times over how good Gale was at trapping prey, by thinking about how they would escape only to perfect their deaths. His own childhood brought upon his anger. It was just another “nut” waiting to be cracked by the rebellion.
From what I read above, one of the things that hits home with me the most is the idea that Gale and Katniss were perfect for each other BEFORE the rebellion. Gale’s full commitment to the war changes him so much that even at the end of the story, he is still fighting, working in District 2. The military district. His life will forever be the fight, whether it’s for his family, Katniss, the rebellion, or now, the government.
After letting his story simmer for a day, I’m starting to feel better about Katniss ending up with Peeta. While the actions of the rebellion pushed her and Gale apart, the void filling with his anger and her defiance, her and Peeta grew closer, trying to end the fighting and make a world that is safe for the other. I’m happy that they got any semblance of peace and normalcy after what they went through together.
First, I want to say I’m sorry for using the word ‘controlled’, influenced is a much better word that goes with what I was trying to explain.
I don’t believe Gale was being controlled, I meant it in a different text; (I meant it in a way that was supposed to mean that he was controlled through influences. But that doesn’t make any sense to anyone but me because I have a really hard time trying to explain it. So I won’t, I’ll just use a different word. )
I do believe though that he was influenced when making decisions by this idea that the rebels could fight the government by taking actions that rival what the government has don’t in the past. I know that makes no sense, I’m finding this really hard to explain… let’s see if an example helps:
“Gale,” I say, taking his arm and trying to speak in a reasonable tone. “The Nut’s an old mine. It’d be like causing a massive coal mining accident.” Surely the words are enough to make anyone from12 think twice about the plan.
“But not so quick as the one that killed our fathers.” He retorts. “Is that everyone’s problem? That our enemies might have a few hours to reflect on the fact that their dying, instead of being blown to bits?”
For me, I took this as Gale was saying that the government had no problem killing innocent people, and that if they were to win they were going to have to kill innocent people too, especially if the people are on the enemy’s side.
Later on when they decide to let district 13 know about their plan to cause the Avalanche, Gale says that Coin would want to kill the people inside by blowing up the train tunnel.
I also took this as a sign that Gale was much closer, for a lack of a better word, to Coin than we really knew or expected. And also that she had some impact on her since he agreed with her about blowing up the tunnel. So, putting two plus two together would equal that Coin did in fact have an influence to Gale and his decisions.
But that influence was only able to seep in because of Gale’s strong dedication to protect the ones he loves. So again, I’m not trying to make him sound like a bad guy, or a weak character, I’m simply trying to point out that Coin did have an influence on him and that led to (if even a small amount of) control over him. (Meaning she could influence him…. See how they tie together? Or is that just in my mind?)
I also wanted to point out that Gale wasn’t the only one who was like this; most other people were under Coins influence because of the promise of a better future the rebellion held.
I do apologize for my bad wording; I have to remember not everyone thinks like me so I need to be really clear when posting on here
Even a just war always involves a paradox. To save some innocent people, you have to risk killing innocent people or even make a calculated effort to kill some innocent people. This is especially true in urban warfare, and with targets who tend to surround themselves with innocents as human shields. There are two equally valid propositions: killing innocents should be avoided and killing some may be justified to save many (and to drastically increase the quality of life for all). Fighting too hard for one undermines the other. Gale and Peeta each embody one side.
While Peeta has killed, he is always aware of the costs to human dignity, including his own. From before his first Hunger Games, he is acutely aware of the Capitol’s goal of turning him into a monster, and he always tries to preserve his own humanity by trying not to become like the Capitol in his effort to defeat the Capitol. This carries through to his immediate verbal response to the new Hunger Games with Capitol children. While Katniss only outwardly agrees to this plan to avoid Coin’s suspicion long enough to kill her, Peeta voices the knowledge that if these games were to occur, it would mean that the core evil of the Capitol would survive. Its enemies would have been bent to its will even in victory.
Gale takes a broader view. Yes, it is mixed with his rage and his long standing hatred, but he also acts out of devotion to the anti-Capitol cause. Perhaps he is overly willing to risk becoming like the Capitol to destroy it, but his ruthlessness is motivated in large part by a rational understanding that if they fail to destroy the Capitol, then all of the deaths to this point will be in vain. And much worse than the Hunger Games will be in store for Panem after a second failed rebellion.
I think that Katniss knows that Gale did not intend for Prim to die, but she also knows that he pioneered the idea of preying on sympathy. He was willing to turn even the virtue of those who would risk their lives to safe others into a weapon for his cause. I doubt that Katniss things that Gale is evil. She probably knows that the ruthless traps he designed were intended to free people, and they may even have been necessary. But that fact that she becomes his victim by losing Prim drives home the costs of his actions. She will always associate him with that pain, and even if she does not think he is evil for it, it permanently distances them. It forever changes her view of him as her protector.
People like Gale are important, and most of us are thankful that there are others willing to make these awful and awesome decisions. We know that we cannot and that they must be made. But after the war, is that the man you want to be with? Being willing to sacrifice anything–yourself, your family (the Hawethornes and the Everdeens are de facto family, and in a way, Gale indirectly killed his own pseudo sister that day), your dignity and humanity–for a just cause has a kind of nobility. But it is not the only kind. After the war, it is natural to want to rebuild with someone who can let go of the war, who has shown an unwillingness to sacrifice you or yours, who makes you feel secure. Only Peeta, who has always embodied culture and love, can be an antidote to the horrors Katniss has seen.
Gale has his virtues, but he shows himself to be a warrior. When the battle is over, a warrior simply isn’t what Katniss needs.
Shannon, I agree with you that Gale fell under the influence of Coin. I don’t believe for a second that he was aware of her hidden agenda, but I think he was swayed by her leadership and ideas for the rebellion. Here is a guy who has been wanting a rebellion for years, and here is someone leading that very rebellion, and quite successfully at that… why wouldn’t he listen to her and begin to trust her.
You can see signs of this influence Coin holds over Gale, when Gale doesn’t tell Katniss about Peetas propos, even going so far as to hide it when Katniss asks him directly if anything new has happened. There are other instances when Gale and Coin are engaged in intense conversation Katniss is not a part of, and he is taking part in military training long before Katniss (based on their own choices). So I think there is ample opportunity for a relationship (and let me be clear that I mean a leader to soldier relationship) to develop between them that is hinted at but that Katniss (and therefore us as readers) would be largely unaware of.
I also think the fact that he got his comunicuff back after witholding info from Katniss hints at Coins art of manipulation in dealing with him. She was clearly a skilled leader to launch the rebellion and clearly coldly calculating and manipulative to be able to pull off some of the things she did. Gale was very intelligent, and knew alot about the Capital’s oppression and the Capital’s games, but unlike Katniss, Peeta, Finnick, and Haymitch had never experienced that type of underhanded double crossing firsthand. I think that is shown when he fights with Katniss defending Coin, and even after she explains Coins motives to him he does not believe it.
In regards to the overall conversation, I think Gale’s character developed very naturally from the first two books. I think it was very real, especially in light of what he had seen at District 12. If he was angry and calling for a fight before that (as shown in both HG and CF), what was he going to do after watching that? It is only natural for him to become more extreme and more angry and develop into what he did. I think Aaron put it very well.
I’m glad we didn’t see him at the end, after Katniss had made her decision. And when she phrased it the way she did, I saw that it was right for it to turn out that way. But before Mockingjay I was pretty convinced that Gale and Katniss would end up together, because Katniss just wasn’t in love with Peeta the way he was with her. But Gale became so focused on what he was doing that we don’t even see him return to 12. And Katniss would never be able to live with him for what he might have done to Prim.
Okay, Shannon, I understand now what you mean, and I guess I agree. Sorry for not taking time to really understand before responding. I just want to remind people that it’s not JUST Coin and Gale who are responsible for these decisions… Beetee was also developing these traps and bombs, however likeable he is. Plenty of other officers and soldiers were willing to sacrifice much for the cause, believing them necessary, blided by hatred for the Capitol (although not without reason).
I just think Gale has played a HUGE role in this series- and he was a true warrior when he needed to be- he knew they had to win this war- otherwise the capitol would have made it so hard on them- he kept his focus- and he always made sure katniss was ok- I loved his character- he was giving, had internal strength, tender, wise, and a survivor really- he did what he had to do for the long term vision- unfortunately this is how it is when there’s war… I thought it was really sad when he said to Katniss that maybe he’s the man in the “hanging tree”- Gale has always been the silent suferer- he in his own way had done so much for katniss and her family. Always… he even made sure and brought Prim down during the bombs when in Dist 13. Gale was always the one that pulled away when they would kiss b/c in his heart he knew her heart was with Peeta- I truly believe that Gale loved Katniss as much as Peeta loved her- and therefore he made the ultimate sacrifice at the end- he knew that neither of them would be able to forgive him for what happened to Prim- he knew that katniss would see Prim whenever she saw Gale- He knew Katniss better than she knew herself- Katniss is not the kind that can face her emotions- she never was good with that- even when Peeta was recovering, she couldn’t stay there and watch- she had to leave (I was disappointed in Katniss here- she should have been there for Peeta even if was just from distance)- Katniss runs when the going gets tough- esp when it comes to dealing with her emotions- she would rather take the “safe” road-(as we can tell by her being with Peeta- he was “safe”)- Gale is too much like her- unpredictable and a survivor… I just wish that Gale and Katniss had their closure with eachother- there friendship for that long, and him being there for her all that time- I just can’t believe it had to end that way… my heart goes out to Gale really- and I would really like to read about what happens to him now… if he ever is able to find any peace in his life…
Boe, I don’t think anyone is discounting that others were making similar choices to Gale. I think that is clear in the decision about the Nut. It may have been Gale’s suggestion, but the whole group in Command discussed the ramifications and even knowing what they were doing the vote still carried to go through with that plan.
As far as Beetee, I do view his character a little differently than Gale. Which may or may not be fair, but it’s just how I see it. IMO, Beetee is the consummate scientist, intent on discovering what can be done, solving problems… without necessarily thinking them through to their final ramifications. I would liken him to some of the scientists would invented the atomic bomb, many of them simply trying to see how far they could get and what they could create without fully thinking of what would happen as a result. I think that picture of Beetee comes to me from his discussion with Katniss about shooting the Hummingbird. He just wanted to know if it could be done, wasn’t thinking about the purpose behind it. Let me also state though, that I don’t think this in anyway absolves him of his share of blame for the destruction created by the weapons he designed. I just think he had different inner motivation than Gale. He is afterall the one who suggests leaving the train tunnel open, which to me says that while he supports the rebellion he is not driven by hate and anger in the same way Gale is.
I’m not sure if Gale is driven by hate and anger- he just knows to win this war you have to be cold hearted- unfortunately that is the truth- he knows that they have to win this war- no matter what- CApital can NOT get control again… his circumstances in his life has made him cold- which is probably the reason he was able to be the soldier/warrior that he was… remember it was Gale that was the first to volunteer to get Peeta out (knowing he could die)- if he was driven by hate and anger, he would not have done this- he did it b/c he knew Katniss needed Peeta (as much as it would hurt him)- again, he is the “silent giver”- he’s been like that throughout the whole series with Katniss…
“People like Gale are important, and most of us are thankful that there are others willing to make these awful and awesome decisions. We know that we cannot and that they must be made. But after the war, is that the man you want to be with? Being willing to sacrifice anything–yourself, your family (the Hawethornes and the Everdeens are de facto family, and in a way, Gale indirectly killed his own pseudo sister that day), your dignity and humanity–for a just cause has a kind of nobility. But it is not the only kind. After the war, it is natural to want to rebuild with someone who can let go of the war, who has shown an unwillingness to sacrifice you or yours, who makes you feel secure. Only Peeta, who has always embodied culture and love, can be an antidote to the horrors Katniss has seen.
Gale has his virtues, but he shows himself to be a warrior. When the battle is over, a warrior simply isn’t what Katniss needs.”
Ally, I believe you have beautifully stated the present-day soldier’s dilemma and war’s devastating effect on our military families.
Jae – p.388 “Gale’s fire, kindled with rage and hatred”
I don’t think he was AT ALL driven by rage and hatred against Peeta. Or that his fuel of rage and hatred, made him cease to love his family or Katniss and those she loved. Jealous of Peeta sure, but I think the hatred was directed 100% at the Capitol. I also think it was pretty well justified rage and hatred.
But if you want to take the example of Gale saving Peeta you could look at that two-fold… One he loved Katniss and Katniss needed to know Peeta was out of the Capitol’s grips to be ok. So despite jealousy he did what he had to do, to help someone he loved even if that meant putting himself in harm’s way and bringing his competitor for Katniss’ affections back. But on the other hand, the rebellion needed Peeta safe to keep the Mockingjay performing. So he was also serving the purpose of keeping the rebellion moving forwarding by performing that mission. So, in my mind, that action was not entirely self-sacrificing. It served his own motives of forwading the rebellion as well. (And let’s not forget it brought Finnik’s love back also, and if you remember Gale was getting pretty concerned that Katniss and Finnik were becoming involved….)
yes I do believe that Gale’s hate and rage was justified- and yes, I also beleive that he got Peeta back because of the rebellion and keep Mockingjay going- but that’s what I admire about him- his vision doesn’t stop at small immediate short term gains- he is looking way beyond- he’s looking at the big picture- and the big picture is not just for his gain alone- it’s for the good of all the people who have suffered by the Capitol… you need people like Gale when there’s a war like this- can NOT be wooshy washy when big choices need to be made- yes you just have to keep the long term vision in your mind- unfortunately this is what war is about- and this is what warriors have to go through- I’m pretty sure Gale will be messed up for a long time now…he did what he had to do for the war- but the aftermath… I don’t know- he lost what he cherished the most- his friendship with katniss… and like I say, I really wish those two had some type of closure…
Jae – I think we just have to agree to disagree there. You need to people who can be focused on the big picture and make the tough decisions, but when Gale lost was me (and I think Katniss as well) was when he was willing to start playing from the Capitol’s handbook. When you seek to win by becoming as evil as those you fight against… you’ve already lost. Even in war there is a line, and in my mind Gale crossed it. One interesting thing to think about is whether Gale, if given the opportunity, would have voted for the Capitol Hunger Games to punish the Capitol…. the Gale I see in the books (based on examples from things like his attitude towards Katniss’ prep team) I believe would have voted Yes with President Coin.
After living his life and seeing what he saw, I don’t blame him for becoming like that or think I even necessarily would be any better than that in his position… I also don’t think that makes it right. The big picture he was focusing on was destruction of the Capitol… at any cost. His intent focus on that big picture made him fail to see (as Haymitch, Katniss and Peeta all saw) that what they would be left with (President Coin’s rule) would be no better than the Capitol (replacing one evil for another). While we need leaders with focus and drive who can see the big picture we also need leaders with discernment who can fight the fight, but leave us with something better at the end of it. Gale blinded by his rage and hatred, lacked that discernment.
As far as closure, I think they got it. Throughout the entire book you see Katniss and Gale pulling away from each other, choosing different paths and different sides. Any lingering closeness they have is based on their past history (and that is frequently referenced whenever Katniss feels close to him it is in reference to old times, not current situations), even their intimate moments are based upon pulling on past memories and emotions. In the end, I don’t think there ever could have been anything more said between them one they both knew that Katniss could never separate Prim’s death from Gale’s actions. What else could be said after that?
Rachel: I do see your point. I’m just partial to Gale- I wish he found his peace- he’s a good guy generally- he watched over her family for years, kept checking on Katniss (even when he snuck in and gave her a kiss on forehead after the choking incident); made sure Prim made it during the bombing when they went deep underground; got Peeta (whatever his reasons); was always there- the strong silent leader- he walked away at the end from Katniss b/c he knows the sight of him would make her miserable and resentful- Gale has gone through a lot- he had to watch the girl he fell in love with, kiss another guy on screen- and I do believe he loved Katniss and would do whatever he had to do to make sure she was ok- even if it was at the expense of himself…
Again, I think we are singling Gale out from the rebels as a group when we deeper in the discussion, which I guess was Boe point too.
It’s hard to judge any postures one takes on how a war should be fought, what are the limits, what’s acceptable and what’s not … There’s no absolute answer. There’s no “right way” to have a war. No decisions are easy, but they have to be made. It will always come back to perspectives and opinions.
Gale had always being a fighter. Given the opportunity I’d no doubt he would have answer the call of the man in the “Hanging Tree”. His methods, his views, and how he goes about them, oh well, yes, are extreme. And even him is aware of it. But as by standers in war and real-world combat, it is easy for us to reach those conclusion and “discern” this pseudo-lines clearly. I’ve not been to war, I have not been oppressed in the ways they people have.
I think that the fact that Gale is so upfront and open about the way he thinks makes it more shocking and uncomfortable, but being direct and forward is in his character. (And granted, one of traits I enjoyed more about his character). You always know what you get with Gale. Life threw him the curve that his very views were the one things that tore him, possibly irremediably” from Katniss.
Rachel, regarding what you said here: “But on the other hand, the rebellion needed Peeta safe to keep the Mockingjay performing. So he was also serving the purpose of keeping the rebellion moving forwarding by performing that mission. So, in my mind, that action was not entirely self-sacrificing. It served his own motives of forwarding the rebellion as well. ” I disagree in the sense that the same could be said about everyone who fought this, seeing it that way, none of the characters actions could be labeled as “entirely self-sacrificing” because everyone that fought was fighting for freedom too. Every action helped their own motives as well. Even Katniss, our Mockingjay, with the assassination of Coin.
Jae- I agree completely. He’s at heart a good guy. I think was part of Collin’s point too. Is how such a good, loveable character is transformed by the horrific experiences of war. Or how a good guy can lose sight of or their own morality/sense of what’s right in the face of certain circumstances.
I think part of him walking away from Katniss was also his own pain too. He had to have been grieving Prim terribly. He loved Prim (his rescue of her in 13, how he stayed with Katniss to also share Prim’s joy when she received the goat in HG) and he put himself in her protector role almost as strongly as Katniss did and took that role on his shoulders alone when Katniss was in the games. I think in combination with his own grief, being around Katniss’ grief would have caused him never-ending pain and self-loathing and that it may have been as hard for him to look at Katniss as it was for her to look at him (and that was why he didn’t visit her at the hospital).
One thing I do find interesting is that he ended up with a government job in District 2 (weaponry). I wonder how he reconciles that with himself after he’s seen what his weapons can do. Is he is still in battle mode, fighting ghosts and living out the war daily? Is he trying to create new weapons that find ways to fight future wars but prevent loss of life (and therefore find some meaning or sense of redemption from Prim’s death)? While as I said I think Katniss and Gale’s relationship had good closure, there is so much more I would love to see explored about Gale after the war.
Honestly, after my first read of MJ, I don’t have the impression that Katniss “chose” Peeta over Gale. Gale bowed out after he decided he could never atone for his role in killing Prim. Katniss moves back to District 12 and lives on her own, and Peeta’s the one that eventually comes home to her. If it was Gale and not Peeta, perhaps the story ends differently.
When they were trying to crack the Nut in District 2, I couldn’t help but think of Gale’s line to Katniss in THG when she was about to go to the Games: “You know how to kill.” “Not people,” I say. “How different can it be, really?”
We know now that if it had been Gale and not Katniss in HG74, Gale would have killed viciously. Even if he had won, I don’t think Katniss would have ever been able to view him the same. Katniss has too much compassion to be a good match for Gale.
Joan- I only think Gale is being singled out because he is a main character and the title of this thread is “Gale Hawthorne.” As I said in my response to Boe, I think the book is pretty clear that Gale is not alone in making these type of decisions. Gale however is most vocal about it to the readers perspective, and the book focuses on that and it’s impact on his relationship to Katniss which is why I think we as readers debate Gale’s decisions more than those of others who may have made the same ones (not that Gale is any more to blame, or any different than any of the others just that the others are not our focus in this book or this discussion).
I never thought Katniss’ execution of Coin was self-sacrificing even if she would have given her own life afterwards. She saw two choices, freedom (kill Coin, and seek freedom in death), or oppression (live under Coin’s rule and have her life be at constant risk, and her family living under the same type of rule and fear as they were under Snow) and she made a choice between them. The entire time she was seeking freedom, this was just another decision she made toward her primary goal.
Also, just to be clear I never said that anyone else made entirely self-sacrificing decisions (nor can I think of any examples of those who did), in fact I was arguing that Gale did not when another poster implied that he did.
PK9, you make an interesting point. Up until the very end, Katniss doesn’t choose either. For a long time, she does not even choose life.
But she does affirmatively reject Gale, I think, by not protesting that she’ll never be able to separate Prim from Gale. It’s not even necessarily about blame or guilt (she may always understand why he did what he did, even if she protested or would have acted differently) but the reality that Gale’s actions–whether necessary for the war or plainly over the line of decency–have irrevocably distanced them. Their relationship has permanently changed after the war and certainly after Prim’s death, and its this knowledge that causes her to mourn their relationship as they separate for the last time.
So yes, in a way, Peeta “won” simply because he showed up in 12 again, giving Katniss and himself time to rebuild and grow together. But I think that even if Gale had returned to 12, Katniss would never have “chosen” him. By the end of the war, it would be Peeta, someone new, or nobody at all.
I just don’t think katniss and gale’s relationship had a good closure- it’s just avoidance- they know they can’t face eachother after everything that has happened- and Katniss has never been good with facing her emotions- she’d rather avoid them- she shows this when she asked to leave when Peeta was getting rehabed- she couldn’t face how she was feeling when he was saying awful things about her- I was disappointed in her- I think she should have stood by his side, even if it was from afar- she never had this strength- she only faces things when she is forced- that’s why really Gale made it easier for the both of them (esp her) by leaving- she can’t face the emotions of what happened- and to me that’s no closure- eventually you have to face what happened- Gale has had her back for years- she knows he’s already going thru a lot for what happened to Prim- but once again, she can’t be there- just like she couldn’t be there for Peeta when he first came back… oh well, that’s probably whole different discussion. Also, I’m really curious of what happens to Gale after the war as well- like I say, his character is so interesting and intriguing to me, I’d love it if Collins writes another book, basically about him…
Jae, I think your take is certainly one possibility for how the relationship ended. But I think an alternative is that they both actually did have closure, because the nature of what had happened during the war destroyed what had existed between them. The (relatively) innocent children they had been when they met were gone, and they’d been replaced by very different adults. With the finality of Prim’s death and the mutual knowledge that Gale was (justifiably or not) responsible, I think they both just knew that the relationship was over and could not ever be restored. It was over as finally and painfully as the lives of their friends were. It was one more precious price they’d paid for freedom. As hunting partners who understood each other wordlessly, there simply wasn’t anything else to say. And there probably never would be.
That said, it might have been nice to have the epilogue break from first person and provide a little follow up on the many characters Katniss lost contact with.